Players Whining that they Should be able to Buy Magic Items

[Vigilance]

But in my opinion it's a bit disingenuous for a DM to decide on his own what kind of game he wants to run, spend 100 hours preparing it, and only then inform the players, at the same time telling them he's invested far too much time in the campaign to change it now.

You make it sound like Ive set some sort of "trap" for the poor prospective players.

I've run fantasy games on the same homebrew world for going on 20 years now... its not something I just sat down and designed so I could "spring it" on some poor players that just wanted a game with a decent magic shop.

And speaking of "what sort of game the players want"... if they are unhappy SOLELY because of the lack of a magic shop, what does that say? lol

When I "decided on my own" what sort of world I wanted, after reading an article about world design in Dragon and wanting to take the plunge... it never occured to me that a magic shop would be the make or break prospect of the whole campaign.

And in fact, it hasn't broken up a gaming group yet

Chuck

 

[Vigilance]

Well then, it's somewhat incumbent upon a player who wants to remain a player (i.e. not take up the reins of DM on his own) to accept the games he can find. It seems a bit manipulative to say to a supposed "friend" that, despite the fact that the vast majority of time and work to make the game possible is put forth by the DM, the players demand equal input into the shape and strictures of the game. IMO, a reasonable and mature player who is left with the choices of 1) play in a DM's game that isn't suited to his specific gaming tastes; or 2) don't play at all; accepts his situation and makes a committed decision between those two choices.

And again I take the pains to point out, we're talking about magic item shops here people.

If Im running a hardcore low magic game where there are witch hunters out there killing everyone who learns magic past 3rd level spells, and a player wants to play a mage... or a world where combat is exceptionally gritty and most PCs are losing limbs or dying irrevocably before they can struggle to 5th level... I could see a player having "taste" issues.

But a player who is dissatisfied with a game solely because he cant nag the Dm into opening a magic shop?

Is that really what people are defending here?

Being able to buy magic items isnt a "game type".

Chuck

 

[FireLance]

When I see threads like these, I usually wonder how much of the aversion to PCs buying and selling magic items is rooted in a desire to keep magic rare and special, and how much is because DMs are unwilling to surrender the last vestige of control they have over the PC's cool abilities.

The current version of D&D really is geared towards allowing players to make the characters they want. It has lifted the arbitrary restrictions of previous editions with respect to which classes are available to which race, as well as on multiclassing (except for a few special cases). Players are generally free to choose the race, class combination, skills, feats and equipment they want. Unless the DM specifically restricts certain races, classes, skills or feats, it appears that magic items are the only exception.

Anyway, I've posted a poll on this topic here.

 

[Vigilance]

and how much is because DMs are unwilling to surrender the last vestige of control they have over the PC's cool abilities.

The last vestige of control huh?

See I really dont see magic item shops as me surrendering my last vestige of anything. If I say "humans thieves only and the campaign will never leave this one city"... THEN I am stripping away player control.

If I say "there's plenty of magic in the world... but it isnt bought or sold, sorry" and a player complains (and from the original post its an ongoing complaint by a minority of the gaming group)... thats a campaign decision.

Its like me saying Orcs have pink skin like pigs, not green skin like Tolkien... and players whining that they "cant play the character they want".

Chuck

 

[Ciaran]

And again I take the pains to point out, we're talking about magic item shops here people.

And as others have taken pains to point out, we're not talking about magic shops, we're talking about buying and selling magic items. Not the same thing at all.

- Eric

 

[Stone Angel]

As most of the others I will go with the old it is your game and hey remember "No means No!"
It is not like you have made magic items unattainable. They can create them if they want them or just take what was found and hope that it benefits for them. Takes away from the whole questing for a specific magic item.

"Well the ring is said to lay in a tomb over a week away"

"What does it do, it is said that it's bearer will become immune even dragons fire, which we need to get past Old Snarl and get to cave that contains the magical waterfall of Lei Tu Jaani"

"Hmmm well I have craft ring, give me a couple days OK"

I think that a lot of this stems from the 3.0 Forgotten Realms too. We all know that the Realms have incorporated magic unlike anyother system and magic is almost standard gear. But with the twist on the red wizards becoming magic item merchants, makes them even more accessible.


The Seraph of Earth and Stone

 

[atom crash]

If I say "there's plenty of magic in the world... but it isnt bought or sold, sorry" and a player complains (and from the original post its an ongoing complaint by a minority of the gaming group)... thats a campaign decision.

I don't understand how in a world where something is plentiful that no one would ever think to buy or sell it. "So valuable that it will never be sold" and "plentiful" are mutually exclusive, in my book. And how do the players come across these plentiful magic items? If they trade gems/items/services for magic items, that's still buying and selling them. Or maybe they're so powerful and valuable that they're all lying around in a dungeon somewhere.

But then again, this is a fantasy game subject to the player's/DM's tastes. Maybe in a fantasy setting where orcs rampage and elves frolic, free markets and daring entrepreneurs don't develop. "What do we do with these extra magic items we have, Berk?" "Maybe we should hide them in a dungeon for the next group of adventurers to find, Cutter!"

If I told my players that "there's plenty of magic in the world... but it isnt bought or sold, sorry" they'd most likely go to the library or sage's guild, find out who owns these magic items, and go kill them for their valuable magic items. Not the kind of heroic game I want to run.

IMO, a reasonable and mature player who is left with the choices of 1) play in a DM's game that isn't suited to his specific gaming tastes; or 2) don't play at all; accepts his situation and makes a committed decision between those two choices. As I said before, only a child (or an entirely too child-like adult) returns to a friends game week after week demanding that the game be changed to suit him, despite clear indications that change will not happen and his constant complaining about it is unwelcome

Hmmm, where I come from mature adults compromise, because we all understand we'll never get everything we want. Only children think they should always get their way.

So I am able to appease my players by allowing them to buy or trade for items from time to time (up until now it's just been minor items as they have just hit the 7th level mark), but I retain control by limiting what they have access to.

 

[reanjr]

Does anyone else have this problem? I'm old school, been playing DnD since 1979, and I have always been firm that players can't buy magic items. Without getting into the pros and cons of it, I never have and never will. It's just me and my style, and I am very up front with it when starting a new game or group. However I've noticed that with the advent of 3E, a few of my players are very adamant that the rules indicate that they are allowed to purchase magic items.

They misread.

Now, rule 1 is of course, the DM sets the rules. I have never allowed this, and am fairly good about providing treasure in the form of items the party will need and will find useful and beneficial, and even after all of this, they are telling me that I am missing the boat on 3E rules.

Am I? I don't think I am, but some opinions and experiences would be helpful.

The rules only state a market price so that you can backtrack to get creation cost and so that you can balance treasure value. They should have used some other indeterminate measurement (such as parsecs - if Star Wars can use it as a unit of time, I can use it as a unit of value). They could then supply conversions. This would have given the more correct impression, IMO.

There's nothing wrong with disallowing the purchase of magical items, though if one looks at demographics, one will find that it is likely that a character can purchase magical items somewhere, especially larger cities. I would not simply follow the standard gold piece limit of a city by population, though. I'd probably generate the population to see if there are wizards living there and of what level. Use your intuition from there.

The rules certainly dictate, through logical deduction, the prerequisites for magical shops. They do not say magic items are for sale.

 

[reanjr]

But I have found that as long as they are unique, interesting, and have a set inventory they can actually be great fun.

In the campaign my group just started, I allowed the players to use their starting cash (4th level) to purchase any magical item out of the SRD/DMG that consisted of something other than a sraight bonus, as I wanted the items to be unique and have some sort of flavor. Not just, I hit 5% more now. For instance, if they had the money, they could purchase a +1 flaming longsword, but not a +1 longsword.

It was very funny watching one player in particular try to find a magical item to improve his character with. He was getting frustrated. I think he ended up using all of his money on disposable items.

 

[reanjr]

alot of new edition players will tell you they need to have Ye Olde Majick Shoppe to purchase and sell their phat magic lewt.

i've got 44000gp worth of phat magic lewt right now i'm pwning off on my DM.

Your tone (not necessarily the "words") completely summarizes my feelings on the matter. Players that started with the new edition seem to be under the impression that the core books are law.