Players Whining that they Should be able to Buy Magic Items

[reanjr]

If I told my players that "there's plenty of magic in the world... but it isnt bought or sold, sorry" they'd most likely go to the library or sage's guild, find out who owns these magic items, and go kill them for their valuable magic items. Not the kind of heroic game I want to run.

Wow. My players' characters would be arrested, mutilated, publicly demoralized, fined, and imprisoned for committing murder and theft; not to mention any equipment used in the murder would be impounded by the state. They'd probably also be banned by whoever ran the library or sage's guild.

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

Wow. My players' characters would be arrested, mutilated, publicly demoralized, fined, and imprisoned for committing murder and theft; not to mention any equipment used in the murder would be impounded by the state. They'd probably also be banned by whoever ran the library or sage's guild.

Hehe, except that I've seen this happen to, it's amazing that if the players go on a killing spree gaining magic items, they become really powerful due to all the magic items they have. If you just want to warn the players and send guards that they are capable of defeating against them, they tend to kill them and take whatever magic items they have, making themselves stronger.

I once had a campaign that continued on like this as I either had to say that all the guards in the world didn't have any magic, in order to maintain the "uniqueness" of magic, who would waste it on just some guards? So, then, with the magic of the party they can easily defeat people with no magic who are Average Party Level +3 fairly easily. Or, the guards all had magic, thus making the party WANT to attract guards and setting traps for them so they could get more magic.

 

[reanjr]

And as *I* asserted before... I dont think buying and selling magic items is a campaign style. People have jumped in saying the players should have a general say in what sort of game they are in.

Is buying and selling magic items the deal breaker?

If it is... I find that silly.

Chuck

Is it a deal breaker to a Player Character? Probably not, unless their character concept is an artificer who is a magical merchant.

To a campaign? It certainly can be. The whole logistics of history, war, government, economy, and law are changed by easy access to magical items. That can pretty much change an entire campaign to the point where it no longer is the same campaign.

Why don't the thirsty people in Great Ulter Wastes just buy a decanter of endless water? Why are castles built when a small, elite strike force can fly in over the walls and open the gate? When the orcs fighting the Elf Wars of Alerand, why didn't they just fireball the hell out of the forest so the elves couldn't keep hiding? Ring of the Ram? Rod of Lordly Might? Bead of Force? Folding Boat?

If you can't see how easily commissioning these types of items can change history, then I'm happy for you that you don't worry much about realism* in your campaigns and just play for fun. But I try to run campaigns that have great internal consistency.

----

* verisimilitude for the pedantic.

 

[reanjr]

Interesting thing about that is its just as much an individual campaign thing as the idea of magic item shops.

I mean, really...you're actually trying to tell me that people buy LAND in D&D?! LAND?! Really now, land is plentiful and its all over the place and its not even mentioned in the Core books that you CAN buy it! Pfft! Buying land!

...sounds oddly similar to buying magic items...

Well, that's why I listed several things. Check out Stronghold Builder's Guidebook for official rules on how to spend a horde of money without getting anything magical. In my experience buying land and property is rarely discouraged in a campaign. I'm sure there are campaigns in which it would be inappropriate, but so too are there campaigns where item creation feats are inappropriate.

Bribery is always a good money sink, too. Even if the DM doesn't feel that bribery is the way to go, throw enough money into it and it becomes ludicrous for the NPC to refuse it.

And sheep are in the core rules. Nothing stops you from taking Profession (shepperd) and buying a ton of sheep. Although, that creates more problems with economy, because the average high-level PC can afford to purchase a monopoly on the sheep industry and therefore would soon have way more money than he could possibly spend on sheep alone. He would have to diversify.

 

[reanjr]

In my experience, it stretches suspension of disbelief when players can't buy magic items. When players say: "Ok, our party has sold 18 +1 weapons, 8 +2 weapons, 2 +3 weapons, 12 rings, even more of each plus of armor, and probably 40 different wonderous items, and we sold the excess 10 potions of cure light wounds by the time we were 12th level, we all have +3 weapons and armor as well, that was just our extra.

In my campaigns the players wouldn't be able to find buyers for that stuff, usually. The only reasonable place would be to a king or lord who would prompty integrate it into his military forces. Therefore, it would no longer be for sale.

 

[reanjr]

If your player wants to shoot himself in the leg with that sorry excuse for powergaming, why don't you just let him? It's not like a couple magic items could save that mess .. :\

Wands are extraordinarily cost effective, for one. Using standard treasure tables, it would be very hard for mid-high level character to not make money just because he goes through 30-40 charges an adventure. Your slightly lower BAB is almost completely offset by a wand of bull's strength (not to mention granting you +2 damage). Magic Missile instead of ragned combat, allowing a more lopsided point buy. Screw your skill investments in jump and climb since you can use spells for those. Feat wise, if you were going to take Improved Unarmed Strike and Improved Grapple anyway, you are only down a single feat and 6 hp (the same you would be down by taking static hp if you were level 12) compared to full fighter. Oh, and you get weapon spec. a bit later. But you've added 5th level cleric and wizard spell capability, monk improved unarmed damage, turning (which means they can take the divine feats), familiar, evasion, MUCH higher saves (+3, +2, +6 at 5th level, the equivilent of more than 3 other feats) and few spells to boot.

The problem isn't that he is overly powerful in a straight up battle. The problem is, why are the other characters in the party? With spiked chain, improved trip, improved disarm, and power attack, there's nothing effective to throw up against him. He can single-handedly take out just about any creature with a CR equal to his level (which is supposedly a challenge for an entire party).

 

[Numion]

Wands are extraordinarily cost effective, for one. Using standard treasure tables, it would be very hard for mid-high level character to not make money just because he goes through 30-40 charges an adventure. Your slightly lower BAB is almost completely offset by a wand of bull's strength (not to mention granting you +2 damage). Magic Missile instead of ragned combat, allowing a more lopsided point buy. Screw your skill investments in jump and climb since you can use spells for those. Feat wise, if you were going to take Improved Unarmed Strike and Improved Grapple anyway, you are only down a single feat and 6 hp (the same you would be down by taking static hp if you were level 12) compared to full fighter. Oh, and you get weapon spec. a bit later. But you've added 5th level cleric and wizard spell capability, monk improved unarmed damage, turning (which means they can take the divine feats), familiar, evasion, MUCH higher saves (+3, +2, +6 at 5th level, the equivilent of more than 3 other feats) and few spells to boot.

The problem isn't that he is overly powerful in a straight up battle. The problem is, why are the other characters in the party? With spiked chain, improved trip, improved disarm, and power attack, there's nothing effective to throw up against him. He can single-handedly take out just about any creature with a CR equal to his level (which is supposedly a challenge for an entire party).

Bull's Str doesn't stack with the belts, which you'd rather be using (no round spent on boosting), and magic missiles from wands tend to be pretty pitiful compared to a real archer. One caster level of wizard on a multiclass character was at least in our games quite useless.

But at first I was just looking at the fact that he sould've taken only a level of cleric and wizard, and take Magic domain to use wizzie wands.

Of course if you say he's a powerhouse, I'll believe you, but the 1/1/1/X multiclasses I've seen thus far go against that experience, especially with spellcasters as the single level classes. 1st and 2nd level spells from wands don't count for much at higher levels (except for cure of wand ligh.. um wand of cure light wounds).

 

[Sammael]

How many people here DM campaigns that go above level 10?

At 1st level, the PCs are too poor to afford magic items, so magic shops aren't a concern at all.

From 2nd to about 4th level, potions and scrolls may be available and affordable, but anything beyond that is still too expensive. Going by the default PC wealth charts, PCs should start getting magic items from encounters with progressively more difficult opponents.

From 5th to about 9th level, characters have enough wealth that they should be able to purchase, commision, or upgrade their magic items. However, any one of those methods can be an adventure unto itself - looking for a powerful spellcaster, traveling to a major city, doing favors to people, etc.

From level 10 onward, characters have enough power, influence, and wealth that not letting them just buy magic items completely suspends realism. The party has access to legend lore, teleport, locate person, whatever... clerics are now bishops and can damn well order accolytes to make them magic items; rogues practically run thieves' guilds; bards probably entertain kings and archdukes; wizards are guildmasters and sages; and fighters have probably saved their comrades' buts many, many times, and can expect to rely on their connections.

In other words, my campaigns are such that by the time the PCs have enough money, they can pretty much expect to be able to obtain nearly any item they can afford, and I don't waste their time by requiring them to roleplay shopping trips.

 

[Psychic Warrior]

I'm somewhat sympathitic to the cry of "I wanna buy magic items!"

That said, the costs for the items in the DMG, are just that: the costs. Point out to your players the selling price of most durable goods is around double of the creation costs.

Hey, if they really want to spend 1,500 gp on a 50 charge wand of cure light wounds or 140,000 for a rod of lordly might, why would you want to stop them? Seriously. They have to use that gold for something. Why not let them coustomize their character a bit?

The prices listed in the DMG are already double the creation costs.

I allow low magic pruchasing in my campaigns (up to +1 items since they are little better than plain old masterwork items, potions, scrolls, wands of level 3 or lower). You have to be in a major city to find any of this stuff and usually the NPC will want gold and a little something extra (hello? is that adventure calling?).

 

[Psychic Warrior]

I think you're missing out on some good opportunities here, really.

I mean, assuming the PCs have been asking around for the purchase of magic items, finally offer them up a "shady" dealer who claims to have an inventory of various items which can be manufactured "for a price" upon request.

Pick out some things, and then have the players pick the things they are interested in. Shady dealer leaves, and a few weeks later delivers the goods as promised.

The items work as advertised - UNTIL the party meets their nemesis, who utters a single command word, and all of the items instantly become cursed, negative versions of what they were before they have detrimental effects. Evil DM laugh ensues.

See that I would have a problem with. A completely undetectable curse worked into their magic items? Wow. What fun.