Playing 2e, 3e, and 4e at the same time: Observations

[ferratus]

The narrative flow of a dungeon is probably a poor choice of words, but mainly it means that things occur in a dungeon the way they should. That includes random patrols, people hearing stuff happening in the next room, not being allowed to rest very easily unless very well hidden, an increased level of alertness if evidence of the killing of several of the other residents is discovered.

In other words, the idea that you can't rest in the the middle of the dungeon without consequence like you could in the Neverwinter Nights videogame. The idea that you can keep monsters from attacking you when you are weak simply but not opening up the next door.

These conventions are very common in D&D as it is played. Dungeon Masters generally do this because they want their players to have a good time, and generally having a party low on resources too early is very common. A DM who brings the hammer down on a diminished party that has no chance of surviving the next encounter because of those low resources generally doesn't remain a DM for very long.

I consider the facilitation of "dungeon narrative" by healing surges to generally be worth the slight loss of "verisimilitude" in exchange for a much more vibrant and active dungeon.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

The idea that you've never seen a DM let people retreat and rest up when they run out spells and hp, even if it doesn't make narrative sense to retreat and rest up, is something I find very hard to swallow.

You can try to retreat, certainly. But the way back will have it's own challenges. If you truly run out of resources before trying to make a safe camp, you're probably in serious trouble.

Which is why- even after 5, 6 or even 7 encounters- our spellcasters still have decent spells at their disposal as we make camp and choose a watch. We ALWAYS hold something in reserve. (Even in 4Ed: I haven't used a daily in the last 3 gaming sessions.)

As for the recharging between encounters being videogamish, that is simply false.

No, it is not false. It is a 100% accurate description of the way 4Ed's power recharge- and, to a slightly lesser extent, the healing surge- mechanics make ME feel.

 

[Gentlegamer]

The narrative flow of a dungeon is probably a poor choice of words, but mainly it means that things occur in a dungeon the way they should. That includes random patrols, people hearing stuff happening in the next room, not being allowed to rest very easily unless very well hidden, an increased level of alertness if evidence of the killing of several of the other residents is discovered.

In other words, the idea that you can't rest in the the middle of the dungeon without consequence like you could in the Neverwinter Nights videogame. The idea that you can keep monsters from attacking you when you are weak simply but not opening up the next door.

These conventions are very common in D&D as it is played. Dungeon Masters generally do this because they want their players to have a good time, and generally having a party low on resources too early is very common. A DM who brings the hammer down on a diminished party that has no chance of surviving the next encounter because of those low resources generally doesn't remain a DM for very long.

I consider the facilitation of "dungeon narrative" by healing surges to generally be worth the slight loss of "verisimilitude" in exchange for a much more vibrant and active dungeon.

Ah, I see.

Isn't the same thing accomplished by the party retreating from the dungeon to recuperate combined with the party *not* fighting every monster encountered, whether by stealth, negotiation, etc.?

From my experience and point of view, players who simply "push on and through" every potential combat encounter have earned every TPK they get.

In my opinion, using 'healing surges' in pre-4e is actually robbing the players the enjoyment of rising to the level of 'skilled play' necessary for navigating a 'living dungeon' environment, as you described. There may be some frustration at first, but the reward is well worth it.

 

[Elf Witch]

I recently played in a 2E game and while I enjoyed it I have to say it reminded me why I like 3E better.

Take combat because 2E does not use miniatures and for the most part does not have rules for movement I found that a lot of the combat encounters had arguments between players and DM on where the PC was. Especially if the PC was in range of spell.

Also because there are no social skills rolls available some players who not are naturally glib or silvered tongue have a hard time playing a more charismatic character.

As for role playing I have played many systems over the years and I have say that the amount of role playing that gets done is more about the group then about the system.

As for the diplomacy argument that a high roll makes the target do what ever you want is BS. It is not a domination spell where the person suddenly loses their free will. It changes the attitude to friendly and helpful. How helpful depends on just what you are asking.

 

[ferratus]

I know it is how it makes you feel. However, it is still the fact that the standard for recharging powers and health in videogames wasn't the standard until very recently, and it was an innovation that came about for the exact reason I stated. Getting stuck without resources, when it is impossible to succeed or retreat without resources, sucks. It was not an innovation that came about because of the limitation of electronic media.

If you were to say that you find a particular actress to be quintessential blonde bombshell, and I point out that for most of her career she was a brunette, then it is alright for me to point out that she got a dye job, even if it shatters your perception of her.

As for holding things in reserve, it is often easier said than done. Dice can be unpredictable, and your cleric can be polymorphed into a duck. I imagine we can play at the same table with a wand of cure light wounds but I care little whether the arbitrary limit on how often cure light wounds can be cast resides in a wand or in the PC himself.

Healing surges are just charges after all. I do however slightly begrudge making having a wand of healing surges for a 5th level party to be an essential part of a dungeoneer's kit more than I begrudge healing surges.

Why do I like healing surges?

1) It encourages people to preserve their own healing resources rather than the reckless barbarian and the lightly armored rogue devouring all the spell slots of the cleric. This makes for smarter play rather than laying the responsibility on the cleric alone. Plus, having all the healing in the cleric reminds me of the Medic in TF2 following everyone around with his healing gun, if you want to draw a videogame analogy.

2) It allows for the feeling of getting tired over the course of several combats for everyone, rather than only retreating because you run out of spells. It is the best mechanic for simulating exhaustion over several fights that I have seen.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

As for the diplomacy argument that a high roll makes the target do what ever you want is BS. It is not a domination spell where the person suddenly loses their free will. It changes the attitude to friendly and helpful. How helpful depends on just what you are asking.

Bingo.

 

[ferratus]

I have to say as well that skill has little to do with it as to whether you can get stuck without resources in old school D&D.

If you fight a mid-level spellcaster, half of your party can be disabled or dead simply because of unlucky rolls from two or three spells. Another guy can be greviously wounded because of a critical hit.

So what do you do if you are in such a situation? If you are lucky, you have a magical item that can revive your party and restore your hit points. Then it is simply a matter of looking after your spells. It does however mean that the DM has to provide a magical item that can undo any problems. Having magical items to restore heath or shake off conditions instead of allowing the heroes to do it themselves just seems like a different way of filing the same rules.

 

[S'mon]

The narrative flow of a dungeon is probably a poor choice of words, but mainly it means that things occur in a dungeon the way they should. That includes random patrols, people hearing stuff happening in the next room, not being allowed to rest very easily unless very well hidden, an increased level of alertness if evidence of the killing of several of the other residents is discovered.

In other words, the idea that you can't rest in the the middle of the dungeon without consequence like you could in the Neverwinter Nights videogame. The idea that you can keep monsters from attacking you when you are weak simply but not opening up the next door.

These conventions are very common in D&D as it is played. Dungeon Masters generally do this because they want their players to have a good time, and generally having a party low on resources too early is very common. A DM who brings the hammer down on a diminished party that has no chance of surviving the next encounter because of those low resources generally doesn't remain a DM for very long.

I consider the facilitation of "dungeon narrative" by healing surges to generally be worth the slight loss of "verisimilitude" in exchange for a much more vibrant and active dungeon.

You're saying that most DMs run dungeons like a video game, and if they don't the players get angry and boot the DM? That doesn't tally with my experience at all.

I run dungeons as a living environment. PCs don't get to rest safely in the dungeon unless for some reason that is plausible. More commonly they delve in, fight a few encounters, and retreat to a safe area. If they insist on pressing on when out of resources, they probably are defeated. This does not IME result in my players firing me as DM. Heck, sometimes the PCs run into a too-powerful foe and are defeated through no fault of their own - and still I don't get fired.

 

[Gentlegamer]

It encourages people to preserve their own healing resources rather than the reckless barbarian and the lightly armored rogue devouring all the spell slots of the cleric. This makes for smarter play rather than laying the responsibility on the cleric alone.

How is 'smarter' play rewarding the reckless barbarian and the rogue starting or engaging in too many fights? The cleric has no obligation to Cure Wounds on poorly played characters. If the cleric withheld healing, perhaps the players of those characters would moderate their actions to not add to the 'hit point attrition' of the party unnecessarily.

Plus, having all the healing in the cleric reminds me of the Medic in TF2 following everyone around with his healing gun, if you want to draw a videogame analogy.

Maybe a little more Scout and Spy in their gameplay and a little less Heavy Weapon would behoove the party in conserving their available resources.

 

[JamesonCourage]

Why do I like healing surges?

We're not trying to invalidate what you like (I don't think, at least!). We're saying that extrapolating it to everyone else, or objectively arguing superiority of a mechanic judged by fun, or invalidating or otherwise ignoring how someone feels are all things that should be avoided.

I'm very interested in preferences. I'm not so interested when someone just knows that they're objective fact, and that their way would be better for me and my group (or everyone's group for that matter). It makes me think they're much more unreasonable than they probably are.

You're right to like the things you do. We're right to like the things we do. Telling Danny that he's essentially wrong because:

However, it is still the fact that the standard for recharging powers and health in videogames wasn't the standard until very recently

... doesn't convince anyone of anything. It just shows that you think it's based on logic, which it isn't. I mean, there's a logical connection, but like I said, if a particular song reminds me of a friend, and you tell me "well, it was actually written with X in mind," then you can't realistically expect me to change how I feel when I listen to that song. I might think of X now, or I might not, but I'll still think of my friend when I hear it.

As always, play what you like