D&D General Playing to "Win" - The DM's Dilemma

[FrogReaver]

By focus fire, do you mean multiple enemies all picking a single target and attacking only that target until the target is out of death saves?

Yes.

 

[Thomas Shey]

By focus fire, do you mean multiple enemies all picking a single target and attacking only that target until the target is out of death saves?

Well, I at least read it as "until they go down". "Out of death saves" gets into the question of how tactically useful that is after a target goes down and how many opponents actually know to account for healing when not everything or perhaps anything they fight normally has that option. I don't tend to think of opposition thinking in those particular terms unless they're specifically there to fight the PCs and know they pack a healer.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Thats because the adjustment time happened before the the rockets were lit.

That's really asking for bad information to kill someone with no recourse. (I know, I saw the smiley, but I'm not a fan of things where something always working out are required for them to work).

 

[Charlaquin]

Here is my upcoming situation:

Soon (in the next session or two) the PCs will encounter a Hag (green) Coven. I know by changing a handful of spells, including something like wall of force, I can separate the PCs into two groups. Even at 9th level (which they should be by the time the encounter happens), a trio of hags (at CR 5) is a Deadly+ encounter. However, if I separate the party into two groups of two PCs each, this becomes much closer to a TPK while within the hags' lair.

Certain other spell options make this almost a certainty. One PC in particular is all about survival--so he might manage to escape death if the others fall.

The party is currently in the hags' domain and the Grannie leader has had spies watching the PCs, so they are becoming more aware of which PC is going to be most problematic and in what way.

Now, their is an NPC werebear which is helping the party (the hags killed his mate years ago and he as been waiting for a chance to avenge her) but they still have about half a dozen encounters to go before the reach the lair. With attrition, I doubt they will be at full force when they arrive.

Of course, they are not bound by any means to do all this. They were sent to these ruins to investigate and want to help the werebear, and are hopeful with his help they can somehow rid the land of these vile creatures.

So, personally, I wouldn’t swap a hag’s individual spells at all since they are innate spellcasters. Swapping their coven spells seems a bit more reasonable, but swapping out non-damaging spells for something like wall of force with the specific intent of dividing up the party feels against the spirit of the advice not to swap damaging spells for non-damaging spells or vice-versa. Splitting the party is kind of dealing virtual damage, by reducing the number of hit points the hags have to chew through to win each encounter, as well as reducing the damage the PCs can do in a round. I think this tactic has a very high potential of feeling unfair from the players’ perspective, so I’d be extremely hesitant to use it.

 

[TwoSix]

Yes.

I generally don't do that, unless they're fighting a fairly intelligent enemy who has awareness that the party possesses healing word or some other kind of "back on your feet" magic. (Since I generally don't use classes within the fiction, the magic the PCs possess is often idiosyncratic within the setting.)

In my upcoming 20th level game, I will absolutely be nuking downed PCs into paste, and then trapping their souls for good measure.

 

[ezo]

So, personally, I wouldn’t swap a hag’s individual spells at all since they are innate spellcasters.

No, I am not swapping out innate spells. That was never my intent.

Swapping their coven spells seems a bit more reasonable, but swapping out non-damaging spells for something like wall of force with the specific intent of dividing up the party feels against the spirit of the advice not to swap damaging spells for non-damaging spells or vice-versa. Splitting the party is kind of dealing virtual damage, but reducing the number of hit points the bags have to chew through to win each encounter, as well as reducing the damage the PCs can do in a round. I think this tactic has a very high potential of feeling unfair from the players’ perspective, so I’d be extremely hesitant to use it.

Wall of Force (a big one IMO) would be swapped for Contact Other Plane (a horrible spell IMO) or for Polymorph (which is just a different variation of removing a PC from the fight--even if temporarily).

The bolded part is the reason for the thread (amoungst others) but the players never feel it is unfair if they use it against the monsters, which they did via beads of force earlier in their adventures.

To such cases my initial response is payback's a b!tch...

 

[TwoSix]

Here is my upcoming situation:

Soon (in the next session or two) the PCs will encounter a Hag (green) Coven. I know by changing a handful of spells, including something like wall of force, I can separate the PCs into two groups. Even at 9th level (which they should be by the time the encounter happens), a trio of hags (at CR 5) is a Deadly+ encounter. However, if I separate the party into two groups of two PCs each, this becomes much closer to a TPK while within the hags' lair.

Certain other spell options make this almost a certainty. One PC in particular is all about survival--so he might manage to escape death if the others fall.

The party is currently in the hags' domain and the Grannie leader has had spies watching the PCs, so they are becoming more aware of which PC is going to be most problematic and in what way.

Now, their is an NPC werebear which is helping the party (the hags killed his mate years ago and he as been waiting for a chance to avenge her) but they still have about half a dozen encounters to go before the reach the lair. With attrition, I doubt they will be at full force when they arrive.

Of course, they are not bound by any means to do all this. They were sent to these ruins to investigate and want to help the werebear, and are hopeful with his help they can somehow rid the land of these vile creatures.

Seems fine to me. Wall of force is still a concentration spell, they just need to focus on the hag that cast it.

 

[ezo]

I'll add, in general, because the PCs have accepted the werebear's help, the hags have been able to use scrying to great effect as they are familiar with the werebear and have had minions collect hair from his campsite (so he auto-fails the save every time they want to keep an eye on him).

Seems fine to me. Wall of force is still a concentration spell, they just need to focus on the hag that cast it.

Since all the hags will be casting the first round, it is unlikely they will know which one did it... There's a chance via an Arcana roll, of course, but I think the highest Arcana skill we have in the party is +3, so not great odds as they have to first pick a hag and then hope that one was the one and then properly identify it.

 

[TwoSix]

I'll add, in general, because the PCs have accepted the werebear's help, the hags have been able to use scrying to great effect as they are familiar with the werebear and have had minions collect hair from his campsite (so he auto-fails the save every time they want to keep an eye on him).

That's a solid balance between help and hindrance, I approve!

Since all the hags will be casting the first round, it is unlikely they will know which one did it... There's a chance via an Arcana roll, of course, but I think the highest Arcana skill we have in the party is +3, so not great odds as they have to first pick a hag and then hope that one was the one and then properly identify it.

If the party is going after highly magical beings like hags without their own magical expert, then they're setting themselves up for failure. Especially at late Tier 2, when impactful magic becomes more and more prevalent.

In my own games, I do generally have "Concentration" on non-subtle or illusionary effects be easily identifiable, though; there's generally an obvious visual indicator between the caster and the effect. But that's just my own personal house rule, for these kind of situations.

 

[Charlaquin]

No, I am not swapping out innate spells. That was never my intent.


Wall of Force (a big one IMO) would be swapped for Contact Other Plane (a horrible spell IMO) or for Polymorph (which is just a different variation of removing a PC from the fight--even if temporarily).

Good point about Polymorph also taking a PC out of the fight, that’s a compelling argument for it being a reasonable choice to swap for Wall of Force. Keep in mind though, Polymorph can only remove one PC from the fight, that PC gets a save, and the other PCs can potentially attack the animal to end the spell and get their ally back. Wall of Force can potentially cut off up to half the party from each other, or even isolate a single PC to have to fight on their own, and there is nothing at all they can do to circumvent it unless they have disintegrate.

The bolded part is the reason for the thread (amoungst others) but the players never feel it is unfair if they use it against the monsters, which they did via beads of force earlier in their adventures.

Right, because it’s a thing the rules as written give them access to. The rules as written do not give hags access to Wall of Force.

To such cases my initial response is payback's a b!tch...

I think if this is your reaction, your motivation for using this tactic is coming from the wrong place. It sounds like this is less about playing the monsters efficiently and more about getting back at the players for a perceived slight, which is not a foundation likely to result in a very good time being had by anybody.