D&D General Playing to "Win" - The DM's Dilemma

[FrogReaver]

Discussion may be easier if you articulated your perspective more explicitly.

I thought I did that already?

Sorry I guess I could have been more clear. The point im trying to make is That playing monsters to win is an illusion. Or more bluntly a lie.

 

[Reynard]

Don't have players who get salty about dying in a combat game?

At my tables, we would have congratulated the DM on being so ruthless.

Most players I play with know my style and enjoy it (or wouldn't show up) but this particular player was very anti "losing."

 

[Reynard]

Sorry I guess I could have been more clear. The point im trying to make is That playing monsters to win is an illusion. Or more bluntly a lie.

I don't see how. I mean, I can see how a GM might engage in illusionism about the danger, but I don't see how the whole concept is a lie.

 

[TwoSix]

Most players I play with know my style and enjoy it (or wouldn't show up) but this particular player was very anti "losing."

A few more character deaths should cure that! They toughen up OR leave, either way problem solved.

 

[Reynard]

A few more character deaths should cure that! They toughen up OR leave, either way problem solved.

You'll be shocked to hear that he does not play with us anymore.

 

[FrogReaver]

I don't see how. I mean, I can see how a GM might engage in illusionism about the danger, but I don't see how the whole concept is a lie.

Because if the DM regularly does even basic things like focus fire PCs. Not pull punches. Etc. These are things the PCs have no or very limited defense against. Some of them will die and since they have no in game recourse to prevent it then the loss will feel and be unfair.

 

[Thomas Shey]

It was a random encounter in an environment where gricks were on the encounter list.

I don't curate random encounters or set them to the party's level. That said, in this case the lone grick was actually lower than usual but bad luck and it only being half the party got in the way.

Well, that's the more general answer to the question: I don't do non-curated encounters that are likely to occur any more. Even if I use a random encounter chart, the entries are curated to be appropriate for the PCs (if that doesn't make sense for the area, then the PCs probably shouldn't be there either and are told they shouldn't be). Basically, I don't think there's much virtue in being able to walk into an encounter too strong for the PCs because of a die roll any more, and its a waste of time to walk into one much weaker. (Just to be clear, this doesn't mean there can't be some variation, but there are distinct ceilings and floors).

That said, as you note this was a low-ball encounter for the full party, so this is a case of the two players deciding to take a pointless risk, and I tend to have limited sympathy for doing that in a game where there's any real potential consequence whether its death or capture.

 

[Reynard]

Because if the DM regularly does even basic things like focus fire PCs. Not pull punches. Etc. These are things the PCs have no or very limited defense against. Some of them will die and since they have no in game recourse to prevent it then the loss will feel and be unfair.

They could move behind cover? Maybe shoot back?

 

[cranberry]

Yes, I absolutely play the monsters to win.

Think about it. It's at least 3 to 1 in terms of people thinking strategically, and the DM needs to think for multiple monsters, whereas the players (typically) only run one.

And mechanically, the odds in favor of the players to begin with..

 

[Thomas Shey]

I think the game runner mindset is what im interested in here. I mean, these tactics are pretty startight foreward in most of the examples so far. Do they always make for a good game? Thats really going to depend on how you view the game. A simulationist focus is all about reenacting a world in the way they imagine it. So, the startegy of scrying and frying is fair game. Though, someone who is gamist focus might vew it as dirty pool because clearly its not an even match. Which even application of the game rules is what supplies a good time for a person of this mindset.

Well, honestly, my solution is not to use a game system that makes that particularly easy. There's a reason I bailed out on D&D3e about the time we hit 14th level; I didn't find alpha striking an at all interesting game play cycle.