Playing With 18s...

[Fortain]

Maybe it's just me, since I've never played a p&p D&D game...

I've noticed that many times, when people create characters for whatever reason (especially for optimization work), their stats seem pretty low for what they can be when you start out. For example, 25 point-buy will only give an average set of stats as 12/12/12/12/12/13. Even 32 point-buy gives 13/13/13/13/14/14, which seems pretty low considering the max (before mods) is 18. Even a recent thread with a person rolling 5 18s for their character was greeted with much surprise & comments like "a boring character to play" and "lower those stats to be fair to others".

I guess my real question is, is there really a difference in DMing a game with all characters having max stats at the beginning, versus XX point-buy? I've heard that people think that the characters would be "boring", "overpowered", etc. In many D&D computer games I've played, the characters with all 18s, while being a bit more powerful than non-18s, still have plenty of times where they get their butts handed to them. I can only imagine that it'd be worse for ones with the averages above, or with potential penalties to stats.

What would you, as a DM, do when running a game like this? Increasing the CL/EL of the critters the party faces, maxing out HP for all critters, etc.? Thanks in advance for all info.

 

[Rystil Arden]

13/13/13/13/14/14

That's really a strawman for 32 PB. I don't think anyone has or will ever build that character unless they do it to try to make a point. 32 PB tends to give a few cookie-cutters like these:

18 12 12 12 12 8,
14 14 14 14 14 10,
16 16 12 12 12 8, or
16 14 14 12 12 10

 

[FalcWP]

Well, for one thing, there is (or, at least, should be) more to a "real" D&D game than something like Neverwinter Nights or Icewind Dale or another D&D computer game. Those can be fun, but they shouldn't be taken as what a real D&D game is. Two of the ones that tend to be left out are actual roleplaying, and teamwork.

One of the nice things about not having all high stats is that your character actually has some weaknesses - not just in combat, but in other situations. If you're always the best at everything, you're going to be bored. If you're not, I think there's something wrong with you.

Of course, if you're always the best at everything, your fellow players will be bored as well. Sure, they might have an area that they can contribute in... but then it can feel a bit more like they're your lackeys, rather than your teammates. (This is part of what makes point buy attractive - nobody has a distinct, mechanical advantage over everyone else that can't easily be erased).

One reason that lots of 18s would suck a bit is because you'd be good at things you normally wouldn't be, without having drawbacks. Every wizard is going to have an above average intelligence; maybe not an 18, but a wizard will almost always have the highest Intelligence score in a group. But, if he also has the highest strength, wisdom, and dexterity, the fighter, cleric, and rogue may well be a bit annoyed at that... they aren't even the best in one of their key areas.

In a computer RPG where you're the only player, you don't need to worry about that. Even if you get to run an entire party of adventurers, you're not going to be annoyed because one character is better at something than another - they're all your characters, anyway, so who cares? It just doesn't work like that in a real D&D game, though.

 

[Legildur]

Except that a Fighter with 18 Intelligence can't cast spells and doesn't excactly have a skill list that sets the world on fire. And a Wizard with 18 Strength can't use martial weapons or any weapon with great effectiveness (low BAB, probably no melee combat feats, and crummy hit points).

Just because you have a high attribute in a score doesn't mean that you excel in that area that it is a prime stat for. I don't see it as a major problem.

In one of my live games, the necromancer has the highest COn score in the party with an 18 (as a human) as against the Barbarian's 16. It increases his survivability dramatically (I think he started with a 17 Int and 18 Con).

 

[Stalker0]

Stats can have a definite impact on a character, moreso with certain concepts than others.

MAD classes like paladins and monks can become much more powerful with a lot of good stats, as they get many abilities based on many stats.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

There is a small chance that you can steel the thunder of other characters just by having high stats. If you compare a "average" Fighter (maybe equivalent to a 25-28 point buy array) with a Rogue with most stats at 18, I think it might take a long while till the Fighter can actually "outfight" the Rogue. The Rogue's lower BAB and HP will be compensates for a long time by the virtue of having high ability modifiers. THe Fighter probably has still more combat options in direct combat, but he won't hit harder or more often then the Rogue, which might make it unsatisfying to play it.
It probably becomes worse comparing the "average" Fighter to an all-18 Cleric.

On the other hand, comparing the average wizard to an all-18 Cleric, the Wizard might not really notice the differences, since the Cleric has some distinctively different abilities (despite both casting spells!).

 

[Bront]

Part of the Flat Stat syndrome is that the Point Buy system makes stats more expensive. 8-14 are 1 for 1 tradeoffs, but it's double the cost for 15 and 16, and triple the cost for 17 and 18, so you don't see as many 18s at 16s, or 14s.

Part of that is that a 16 IS a little more benificial than a 14 beyond the simple +3, because it tips the scales just that more more in that stat's favor. Same with an 18 over a 16. So, if you made everything 1 for 1, you'd get more 18s out there. In fact, a 2 18 build is fairly easy at 10 points each instead of 16 each (which, in a 32 point buy, means all the other stats are 8)

 

[airwalkrr]

My group always rolls ability scores. Yeehaw!