D&D (2024) Playtest 8 Monk Discussion

[Horwath]

This. And a first level fighter can't keep up with a first level monk on damage without crippling their long term growth by going two weapon.

greatsword+graze.
10 damage on hit, 3 on a miss.
more AC and HP, oh and 2× d10+1 self heal as a bonus action.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

greatsword+graze.
10 damage on hit, 3 on a miss.
more AC and HP, oh and 2× d10+1 self heal as a bonus action.

Do we really have to compare classes solely based on their level 1 features?

The fighter has a great package at level 1. That was true in 2014 too.

The monk in 2024 now has AC16 without armor. Is always fully armed. Can grapple with Dex. Wisdom and Dex are not bad stats at all to have high. Great initative, great perception. Being able to dodge, dash or disengage and still make an attack will make him quite elusive.

Compare that to the rogue at level 1 and you have a great deal. Only at level 2 the rogue gets cunning strike and keeps up, but lo and behold, at that point the monk has nearly the same capabilities with their bonus actions.

At level 1, classes just need to be close enough. At level 2 and 3 is where to look at. And the monk is in a great shape. As is the fighter, as is the rogue, as is the barbarian. So all the martial classes are quite ready for shipment.

On that note: a great weapon fighter will also just be at AC 16 usually. Has not that great of an initiative and will struggle a bit with ranged enemies.

 

[Neonchameleon]

greatsword+graze.
10 damage on hit, 3 on a miss.

And when you hit two thirds of the time on average it's still lower DPR than 2*6.5 damage on a hit. (Although throw in GWM and that advantage vanishes). Also (a) greatswords cost 50GP which is a meaningful opportunity cost at first level, and (b) you're using Str for that character meaning Dex being the god-stat comes into play.

Is the fighter better than the monk at first level? Probably. But it's not the "almost strictly better" situation it was any more. And the monk is still in the top half of all characters at first level (the problem cases being the squishy casters).

 

[Amrûnril]

It's a good counterpart to the Rogue's Uncanny Dodge, with enough downsides that I don't think it'll make them into tanks. It has a higher minimum than Uncanny Dodge, able to negate smaller hits entirely, but doesn't scale up against big hits. It only works on physical damage until 13th Level, which might or might not be a big deal depending on how the Monster Manual is styled now. And it only works on one hit a round, so it's not as good at holding the front line against multiple foes as a Barbarian, say.

All in all, a very solid defensive upgrade to a notoriously squishy class, but the utility will rather depend on the DM's encounter design style.

Yes, this is a very encounter dependent ability. It won't do as much as the Barbarian's range against focus fire or the Rogue's uncanny dodge against a single large attack. If, on the other hand, you're getting attacked once or twice per round for a small to moderate amount of damage, its likely far stronger than either of these abilities.

To take things to the extreme, a single opponent who attacks once per round for less than Proficiency+DEX+1d10 is effectively helpless against the monk. That may not be a common scenario, but blocking one of several attacks or mitigating that amount of damage from a larger attack is still quite impressive for an at will reaction (especially compared to the features other martial classes unlock at the same level as subclasses). If this ability goes to print in its current form, I think it will make Monks by far the strongest duelists in the game.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Yes, this is a very encounter dependent ability. It won't do as much as the Barbarian's range against focus fire or the Rogue's uncanny dodge against a single large attack. If, on the other hand, you're getting attacked once or twice per round for a small to moderate amount of damage, its likely far stronger than either of these abilities.

To take things to the extreme, a single opponent who attacks once per round for less than Proficiency+DEX+1d10 is effectively helpless against the monk. That may not be a common scenario, but blocking one of several attacks or mitigating that amount of damage from a larger attack is still quite impressive for an at will reaction (especially compared to the features other martial classes unlock at the same level as subclasses). If this ability goes to print in its current form, I think it will make Monks by far the strongest duelists in the game.

At will makes it comparable to uncanny dodge. Which just reduces damage by half.

1d10+dex+monk level reduction on as an at will power is maybe a bit overtuned. So maybe reduce it to martial art die + monk level + dex. That at least makes it a bit more sane at low level.

 

[Leatherhead]

Overall, Monks have a bit of a problem with being too reliant on their bonus action. Creates a bit of anti-synergy with race/lineage and feat options that also provide bonus actions.

Deflect Attacks is a bit overrated: It's a single reaction (meaning no opportunity attacks), that works on a single attack.

Uncanny Metabolism helps a bit with the problem of tables not taking a short rest. Which should be lessened now that more classes have a reason to short rest.

Addle should be a weapon mastery property. In fact, why not allow monks to put weapon masteries on their unarmed strikes in general? The mechanics are halfway there already. Make it consistent across the classes for ease of learning the system, and just full tilt into the Monk being the "Complex Martial" that people are clamoring for.

Heck, I don't see any problem with allowing monks to just use weapons and light armor already, it's kind of an inaccurate assumption to make them go around without anyway. Martial artists use weapons and armor all the time.

 

[Leatherhead]

At will makes it comparable to uncanny dodge. Which just reduces damage by half.

1d10+dex+monk level reduction on as an at will power is maybe a bit overtuned. So maybe reduce it to martial art die + monk level + dex. That at least makes it a bit more sane at low level.

It has to be able to completely negate attacks or the damage redirection part of it doesn't work.

 

[Neonchameleon]

At will makes it comparable to uncanny dodge. Which just reduces damage by half.

1d10+dex+monk level reduction on as an at will power is maybe a bit overtuned. So maybe reduce it to martial art die + monk level + dex. That at least makes it a bit more sane at low level.

It also falls off massively for the same reason that Rage does. At low level everyone's going to be using physical weapons - but by about level 10 almost everything's going to be elemental. And when it comes back at level 13 it's not what it once was.

 

[Vikingkingq]

Overall, I think this was a huge improvement on UA6 and 2014. There's still a few odd interactions and things that I have questions about:

• The free version of Patient Defense doesn't really evoke the fantasy of the martial artist pulling a Neo very well. I get that giving Dodge for only a Bonus Action would be a bit strong, but if the free Patient Defense gave you something like Sap Mastery or Blade Ward, where you imposed Disadvantage on one attack, that wouldn't strain the power budget. That way, the 1 DP version could still give you Bonus Action Dodge. Maybe slide Disengage over to Step of the Wind?
• Dipping one level into Rogue for Weapon Mastery and Expertise seems really good for the Monk (while going more than one level results in a lot of wasted class features). With access to Nick, you can be attacking three times a round starting at level 2 without spending DP. If you combine that with access to Vex to increase your odds of connecting, that is a nice bonus to your DPR as well.
• Also, it's oddly good for Rogues to dip one level into Monk to get access to Hand Crossbows, although I'd guess that the final version of Rogue will give proficiency in Martial Weapons that are Finesse and Light.
• Other than Empowered Strike, is there any reason to use Unarmed Attacks for your Attack Action rather than Monk Weapons? Even without a dip or a feat to get Weapon Mastery, a Dagger or Handaxe gives you ranged options without sacrificing any damage.

 

[Gammadoodler]

Yes, this is a very encounter dependent ability. It won't do as much as the Barbarian's range against focus fire or the Rogue's uncanny dodge against a single large attack. If, on the other hand, you're getting attacked once or twice per round for a small to moderate amount of damage, its likely far stronger than either of these abilities.

To take things to the extreme, a single opponent who attacks once per round for less than Proficiency+DEX+1d10 is effectively helpless against the monk. That may not be a common scenario, but blocking one of several attacks or mitigating that amount of damage from a larger attack is still quite impressive for an at will reaction (especially compared to the features other martial classes unlock at the same level as subclasses). If this ability goes to print in its current form, I think it will make Monks by far the strongest duelists in the game.

I think the interesting bit to see will be how potent the combination is with more frequent use of the dodge action.

Also kudos to them for taking a situational but flavorful and thematic ability (arrow catching always felt good in 5e) and just making it less dependent on the situation.

Kudos kind of all around. Pretty much all the abilities seem to have clear use cases and it looks like they've shored up many of the weird flavor gaps (e.g. why is my master of hand to hand combat so bad at grappling?).

And, interestingly, pretty much all of the 'mystical' flavor has been excised from the core class. I think this will have a nice benefit of giving some greater distinction between the various subclasses.