D&D (2024) Playtest Packet 6: They knocked Druid out of the Park

[Yaarel]

I love how the 2024 Druid can wear metal armor. To have a master of elemental earth and metal be somehow unable to use metal was perplexing. It is mostly moot since the default is Light Armor. At least nothing stands in the way if a character concept picks up Medium Armor from the Warden.


Re the flavor of elemental magic.

Elemental could be its own magical source, like arcane or primal. But instead it finds its own way into both arcane and primal.

In the arcane context, elemental is more about protoscientific fundamental substances (or fundamental motions).

But in the primal context, elemental is more about the features of a living natural ecosystem.

Earth = landscapes while revering distinctive local features such as unusual rock formations "who" are sacred
Water = waterscapes including seasonal rains, specific rivers, and world ocean
Air = skyscapes with breath of life, levels of the atmosphere, and weather patterns
Fire = firescapes, including nourishing sunlight, gentle moonlight, volcanism, and fertile rebirth from forest fires

"Plant" too can function as an elemental living feature of nature.

All of this primal magic is the magic whose source is the Material Plane.

 

[Clint_L]

Which is why, that high a percentage meant it was too good to pass up.

Maybe so, but this goes too far in the other direction and almost guarantees a visceral reaction from a whole lot of Druid players. Which will probably torpedo it again, since WotC has shown they are not going to make controversial changes. I think it’s probably already dead in the water.

Players hate nerfs. This is a big one.

 

[Yaarel]

Im happy with the broad strokes of the Druid class. I am looking at the details.

At level 1 Primal Order, for the choice between Magician and Warden, I love the Warden. It is perfect.

I am somewhat concerned about the Magician because of concern about the Nature skill.

Generally speaking, the Magician and Warden are balanced choices. The Magician with an extra cantrip is comparable to a Warden with a martial weapon. Meanwhile the Medium Armor may or may not be useful depending on the AC bonus from Dexterity.

In context, the Magician bonus to Nature is meant to be a minor ribbon.

Even so, the overlap between the Nature skill and the Survival skill is often confusing. For example, one might think navigating and predicting weather would use Nature, but in fact they use Survival. Most of the uses that are beneficial during gameplay, are from Survival. Nature is relatively nonuseful.

As a DM, I have tried to shore up the value of Nature and to distinguish it from Survival. I use Survival for the wilderness and its wildlife. Thus tracking and foraging, and even navigating, are typically wilderness applications of Survival.

By contrast, I use Nature for the natural sciences, including elemental alchemy, mathematics, engineering, material strengths, architecture, metallurgy, and so on. This distinction makes Nature useful in my campaigns. I am unsure how it meshes with narrative of the Druid class.

In any case, 5e needs to make clearer in the core rules, why Nature isnt the same thing Survival. What exactly can Nature do? And. Why does it matter if the Magician adds a Wisdom bonus to Nature? What would the Druid be using Nature for? Most of the time, the Druid will be using the Survival skill anyway.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I don't get the complaint about not being able to be "the wolf guy" or choosing how your form looks with this itteration, and I'd love some perspective. With a static stat block you would have to skin and flavour your beast form as a wolf either way, why can't you reskin your mammoth form as an enourmous wolf? It looks like the same exact amount of work...

Yes. Probably okish.

Then, I'd still like a hybrid that gives a generic stat block and lists a few key elements of different animals.

I mean the 2014 creature building guideline has a 2 page spread that does exactly this. Can't we afford to have 2 pages of one line animal stats?

Wolf: Size medium. Str 14, Dex 12, Con 8, speed 40ft, trip attack (Prone, Str vs DC 10 + prof modifier negates).

You could also base DCs on druid Wisdom modifier, and allow them to increase the size of the animal at some higher level etc.

 

[Henadic Theologian]

Im happy with the broad strokes of the Druid class. I am looking at the details.

At level 1 Primal Order, for the choice between Magician and Warden, I love the Warden. It is perfect.

I am somewhat concerned about the Magician because of concern about the Nature skill.

Generally speaking, the Magician and Warden are balanced choices. The Magician with an extra cantrip is comparable to a Warden with a martial weapon. Meanwhile the Medium Armor may or may not be useful depending on the AC bonus from Dexterity.

In context, the Magician bonus to Nature is meant to be a minor ribbon.

Even so, the overlap between the Nature skill and the Survival skill is often confusing. For example, one might think navigating and predicting weather would use Nature, but in fact they use Survival. Most of the uses that are beneficial during gameplay, are from Survival. Nature is relatively nonuseful.

As a DM, I have tried to shore up the value of Nature and to distinguish it from Survival. I use Survival for the wilderness and its wildlife. Thus tracking and foraging, and even navigating, are typically wilderness applications of Survival.

By contrast, I use Nature for the natural sciences, including elemental alchemy, mathematics, engineering, material strengths, architecture, metallurgy, and so on. This distinction makes Nature useful in my campaigns. I am unsure how it meshes with narrative of the Druid class.

In any case, 5e needs to make clearer in the core rules, why Nature isnt the same thing Survival. What exactly can Nature do? And. Why does it matter if the Magician adds a Wisdom bonus to Nature? What would the Druid be using Nature for? Most of the time, the Druid will be using the Survival skill anyway.

I think you also use Nature checks for none Urban Knowledge checks for the Feywild, Shadowfell, and Elemental Planes maybe?

 

[Mirrorrorrim]

I don't get the complaint about not being able to be "the wolf guy" or choosing how your form looks with this itteration, and I'd love some perspective. With a static stat block you would have to skin and flavour your beast form as a wolf either way, why can't you reskin your mammoth form as an enourmous wolf? It looks like the same exact amount of work...

It's harder because new player druids (and experienced players) have to use other non-PHB books to research beast forms, and use those books as player sourcebooks. That is terrible design. A Core class should not require accessing a second book to be able to play it.

Yes, the last playtest version was specifically designed to be reskinnable. The rules were simple, your combat templates were in one place (rather than scattered across the entire bibliography of the game), and reskinning your form was a flavor choice. That was the penultimate juxtaposition of choice and ease of design. Sure, it was basic and deserved another design pass to enhance the verisimilitude people were seeking.

Now for those people who were against the template-wildshape of the last playtest version, what was their main complaint? That the form didn't have the beast abilities that made the form feel like the beast in question. They pointed at abilities like pack tactics and swallow whole and all kinds of different bestial abilities that the template didn't cover. As mentioned previoiusly, a good solution in a second design pass would be to include an array of bestial abilities as options to choose from, to add to the template, to better represent your form. But that looks like it got overruled by dissenters.

Now, if my higher-level moon druid preferred to wildshape into wolves, and wants to be useful in a higher-level fight, I can't be a wolf and be helpful (just like I couldn't with the 2014 druid). If as a solution, a template-hater told me to reskin a 2014 mammoth as a giant wolf, that would be a disengenuous suggestion because that is exactly the thing they were against. A mammoth doesn't give me the abilities of a giant wolf. It has way different stats (9 Dex) and gives me Trampling Charge, Gore, and Stomp. Am I supposed to ignore those abilities? Replace them using which rules? Ask the DM to create new stat blocks? Or just say those abilities are something else a lumbering giant wolf would do? Were hit points the real difference? Well, now HP doesn't matter even in the new design.

The better solution was to include optional bestial abilities to add to a template. But now we don't get that as an option. We have to go back to scraping through a bunch of monster books or DDB. Hard pass. There is a lot I love about the non-wildshape aspects of the new druid, but I will rate the new wildshape very low.

And limiting number of available prepared forms to 3-5 absolutely nerfs the flexibility and adaptability to new surprise challenges in adventures. Oh, we see a herd of cattle being herded into the enemy city, but now you can't turn into a cow to infiltrate because you didn't "prepare" the cow form that morning? Bleh.

If the intent was for the wildshape form to scale into being competitive at higher levels, then The rules need to allow it. The template allowed the previous playtest druid to do just that, in the class description itself. While the new wildshape is a little better than 2014 druid (nerfing the HP), it is a non-starter for me because it still needs the entire bibliography of the game to work and I still can't be a form I want and be useful at every level.

 

[Marandahir]

I love that Wardens are now best represented as Druids -- even called out as such.

The Investiture spells were direct translations of the 4e Warden class features, but only Druids had access to them as they were too high-leveled for Rangers and Oath of the Ancients Paladins to access (and Warden-like Barbarian builds don't get regular spell access). So now we have a way to portray them, and you don't have to be a Moon Druid that transforms into animals more frequently than other Druids to be a Warden. 4e Wardens might take on animal-like features at times, but they weren't wild-shaping the way Druids were. So here you can use the Warden Order to better your Warbear Moon Druid, or you could use it to reflect your elementalist Warden with the Circle of the Land…

It's fantastic and I love it.

 

[DeviousQuail]

I can see a lot of Moon Druids salivating at getting Wild Resurgence at level 5. Why use cure wounds and an action in combat when you can convert a 1st level spell slot into 15 THP (with potential for more at higher levels) at the cost of a bonus action? Being able to shift many times in a short period like Doric from the D&D movie is now possible. It just costs a lot of spell slots.

Making Moon Druids not have to cover elemental stuff is a great thematic win. Now make a new subclass that focuses on elemental wild shapes and give us another shape changer please.

Also, the THP for Moon Druids being the lower of Druid Level*3 or the animal's HP seems needlessly complex. Who cares if turning into a house cat gives you the same THP as a bear? You don't lose the THP when you end the wildshape so you could go bear first and then cat and with wild resurgence you've really only cost yourself one spell slot at most. Archdruid doesn't give unlimited wild shapes anymore so it's not like you can abuse this for infinite HP like the 2014 druid could.

Last bit about Moon Druids and wildshape in general: barring WotC putting more animal stat blocks out, they should include the ability to use your spell attack modifier in place of the animal's attack modifier if it is higher. It doesn't change damage on a hit so house cats aren't going to out compete bears. Combine this with a flat Druid Level*3 THP for Moon Druids and you can make lower CR animals last a lot longer.

Otherwise I think everything else in the main Druid features is good or better. Land Druid looks way better, Moon is solid, Sea is pretty good but I feel like each subsequent use should also require a Bonus Action like the Storm Herald Barbarian's Storm Aura feature.

 

[Marandahir]

I love how the 2024 Druid can wear metal armor. To have a master of elemental earth and metal be somehow unable to use metal was perplexing. It is mostly moot since the default is Light Armor. At least nothing stands in the way if a character concept picks up Medium Armor from the Warden.


Re the flavor of elemental magic.

Elemental could be its own magical source, like arcane or primal. But instead it finds its own way into both arcane and primal.

In the arcane context, elemental is more about protoscientific fundamental substances (or fundamental motions).

But in the primal context, elemental is more about the features of a living natural ecosystem.

Earth = landscapes while revering distinctive local features such as unusual rock formations "who" are sacred
Water = waterscapes including seasonal rains, specific rivers, and world ocean
Air = skyscapes with breath of life, levels of the atmosphere, and weather patterns
Fire = firescapes, including nourishing sunlight, gentle moonlight, volcanism, and fertile rebirth from forest fires

"Plant" too can function as an elemental living feature of nature.

All of this primal magic is the magic whose source is the Material Plane.

I think what they're getting at in this Druid flavour text is that while the Druid reveres the elements in the context of Primal Nature, when the Balance of Nature is thrown out of whack, one or more elements might take dominance over the others, and if so, the Material Plane itself may disintegrate into say the Plane of Fire (or into say the Frostfell if it's 2 elements, or even into the Elemental Chaos if it's 3 but not all 4 that are dominating), and turned into a part of that plane. The Natural World is built from the bones of the Inner Planes, while the outer planes reflect the warring ideologies within our souls. The Elemental Chaos is the raw stuff from whence it all came, the Astral Sea and Wildspace are the expansive phlogiston upon which the Material Planes have been set adrift. The Druid wants to preserve the natural order, the way things are, the cycles of nature that slowly change and allow species to adapt and evolve to the changes. There may be catastrophes, yes, but never so great that the entire world and everything living on it would end. The Druid is the Warden against that terrible fate, the Ferocity holding back the Falling Moon.

I also love that their animal companions they might summon are Fey. 4e had this weird idea that because the Feywild and Shadowfell are echoes of the Prime Material, they are incompatible with the Primal and incursions upon this plane of existence. 5e has a much more nuanced stance here. The Elementals are part of the natural order, but too much of any one element and things are thrown out of wack. Feywild is a place where things are as they were in the Spring of the World. It's much brighter and weirder than our day to day life, but it's not anathema to the Druidic Circles, because it reflects the natural order as it were in times long past. That's why the Circle of Dreams even explicitely ties to the Feywild. The Shadowfell itself may not be anathema to the Prime Material either, lest some undead army transform the entire world into another Shadowfell. Death is the natural order of things, and the Raven Queen and her Sorrowsworn and Shadar-kai enforce such order. Even undeath could be natural, in some cases, hence the Circle of Spores.

This is as opposed to the Divine Cleric, who sees anything opposed to light and goodness and order and justice as evil, so they can turn undead and fiends and use their divine outsider aid to fight back all who claim to be fools to suffer the light.

 

[Yaarel]

I think what they're getting at in this Druid flavour text is that while the Druid reveres the elements in the context of Primal Nature, when the Balance of Nature is thrown out of whack, one or more elements might take dominance over the others, and if so, the Material Plane itself may disintegrate into the Plane of Fire (or into the Frostfell if it's 2 elements, or even into the Elemental Chaos if it's 3 but not all 4 that are dominating), and turned into a part of that plane. The Natural World is built from the bones of the Inner Planes, while the outer planes reflect the warring ideologies within our souls. The Elemental Chaos is the raw stuff from whence it all came, the Astral Sea and Wildspace are the expansive phlogiston upon which the Material Planes have been set adrift. The Druid wants to preserve the natural order, the way things are, the cycles of nature that slowly change and allow species to adapt and evolve to the changes. There may be catastrophes, yes, but never so great that the entire world and everything living on it would end. The Druid is the Warden against that terrible fate, the Ferocity holding back the Falling Moon.

I also love that their animal companions they might summon are Fey. 4e had this weird idea that because the Feywild and Shadowfell are echoes of the Prime Material, they are incompatible with the Primal and incursions upon this plane of existence. 5e has a much more nuanced stance here. The Elementals are part of the natural order, but too much of any one element and things are thrown out of wack. Feywild is a place where things are as they were in the Spring of the World. It's much brighter and weirder than our day to day life, but it's not anathema to the Druidic Circles, because it reflects the natural order as it were in times long past. That's why the Circle of Dreams even explicitely ties to the Feywild. The Shadowfell itself may not be anathema to the Prime Material either, lest some undead army transform the entire world into another Shadowfell. Death is the natural order of things, and the Raven Queen and her Sorrowsworn and Shadar-kai enforce such order. Even undeath could be natural, in some cases, hence the Circle of Spores.

This is as opposed to the Divine Cleric, who sees anything opposed to light and goodness and order and justice as evil, so they can turn undead and fiends and use their divine outsider aid to fight back all who claim to be fools to suffer the light.

The Dark Sun setting is a cautionary tale about what happens when the elements get out of balance. In that setting, the annihilation of the element of water caused the other three elements to go wrong.