Playtest report: Hanging on a fence

[Falkus]

I also think that roleplaying is never as much fun with pre-made characters handed to you. With no background, no investment in them etc. this puts a real brake on roleplaying IME.

That's true enough. I always have a tricky time getting into the mindset of a character I didn't write.

 

[Zaruthustran]

That's a fantastic point about the pre-gens. Of *course* playing with pre-gens would feel like Warhammer Quest or some other board game. You show up at the table, you pick your playing piece, and you move it around the board.

There's no investment. There's no creation, or thought about background or motivation. It only makes sense for people to evaluate test adventures with pre-gens as a simple overview of low-level 4E combat. It's not a slice of experience of the whole game itself.

Also, that's an interesting point about DDM being D&D's combat system. I wonder how close to the truth that is, or if D&D's combat system will differ in subtle ways?

 

[maggot]

That's a fantastic point about the pre-gens. Of *course* playing with pre-gens would feel like Warhammer Quest or some other board game. You show up at the table, you pick your playing piece, and you move it around the board.

So the question then becomes does 4e feel more like a tactical board game than other role-playing games when played in the same fashion (pre-gen chars, combat scenario).

 

[Frostmarrow]

Also, that's an interesting point about DDM being D&D's combat system. I wonder how close to the truth that is, or if D&D's combat system will differ in subtle ways?

I hope we won't be measuring lines of effect from corners to corners. In DDM you do but in D&D I just wish we'll use the characters head as point of origin. Measuring bow shots from the corner of the square you happen to be in is too detached for my taste.

I like pregens. I don't see how running pregens is an excuse to role-play less. I might agree that running two characters simultaneoulsy might put a damper on things but in such a case I would concentrate on the one I like the most.

Still, role-play will come with the flow. I'm not overly worried about that. And the skill challenges are growing on me. There are interesting things to come.

 

[mach1.9pants]

It is not so much pre-gens that thwacks role-playing for me but one shot pre-gens in a one session adventure
One of the best 'campaigns' I have ever had was using the pre-gens from the module with 'Doc/The One' and the undead pretend servitor race in a mining town (cannot remember what it was called for the life of me) -2E with UA IIRC.

 

[Primal]

Ironically, the 4e power system is probably the closest that D&D will ever, ever come to what you want.

I think his main point was that when a PC falls to negative HPs, nobody, DM included, can predict whether he's just momentarily unconscious or dying. The fact is, in 4E you just become "unable to fight" and fall prone, but the DM cannot describe the effects of the last blow or the PC's condition in any way until those "recovery rolls" are done with. For example, the effect would be laughable if you described how a blow leaves a character with "his guts spilling out", but he rolls a natural 20 on his next round's recovery roll ("Guys, I'm just fine! A bit bloodied, but no lasting wounds!"). Especially as he only needs to rest for 6 hours to get to "full health" -- quite a feat if he's innards were hanging out.

 

[Fallen Seraph]

Well that is why you as a DM, have to describe things more subtly. For example, for me as a DM I plan on doing the following.

Example:

The fighter has just gotten hit down to 0 HP by the spear of a Goblin:

-He falls to the ground, wrestling the spear out of his body. As it comes loose he throws it aside, his bloody hands fumbling with his belt pouch to get at bandages inside. He shoves them inside the bleeding wound; the pressure and pain causing him to scream and cry in agony.

• He rolls a 20: The fighter begins to feel the blood-flow slow, his cries stutter and stop. Wrapping some more bandage around the wound, he stumbles to his feet, slipping on his own blood. He grimaces and grasps his mace letting his momentum and sheer will drive him through the rest of the fight. His wound still bleeding and spilling onto the ground.
• He rolls a 10-19: The fighter continues to apply pressure, his feet scrapping across the dungeon floor as he fails to find traction to move away from the fight. Even still he continues to apply more and more bandages and pressure to the wound.
• He rolls a 1-9: More and more blood begins to splatter across the ground, his cries grow more and more frightened as his life-blood ebbs out. His bandages don't seem to be doing anything.

If you wanted too, to. If the use of Healing Surges and thus being at a much weaker HP till you have your extended rest isn't enough. You could say have the fighter move at half speed, to show the agony of moving with this wound still there.

 

[Cirex]

I think his main point was that when a PC falls to negative HPs, nobody, DM included, can predict whether he's just momentarily unconscious or dying. The fact is, in 4E you just become "unable to fight" and fall prone, but the DM cannot describe the effects of the last blow or the PC's condition in any way until those "recovery rolls" are done with. For example, the effect would be laughable if you described how a blow leaves a character with "his guts spilling out", but he rolls a natural 20 on his next round's recovery roll ("Guys, I'm just fine! A bit bloodied, but no lasting wounds!"). Especially as he only needs to rest for 6 hours to get to "full health" -- quite a feat if he's innards were hanging out.

At third edition, I let my players meta a bit with that. They kinda know the state of their partners, if they really require healing in that moment or if they can hold a few more seconds.

It's that kind of mental link you develop with friends after facing many challenges and smiling back at death every single day.

 

[CleverNickName]

The more I've seen of 4e, the more it reminds me of Heroquest and Warhammer Quest. I've always had a love/hate relationship with the gamist aspects of D&D and 4e seems to be pushing it all the way to 11 on the gamist side. No thanks, I did cancel my preorder.

Well I didn't cancel my preorder or anything, but I too noticed how "gamist" 4E has become. I'm not suggesting that this is a bad thing either; a lot of people seem very pleased with the new look and feel. I'm just having a hard time adjusting to it.

My favorite version so far is 3.5E. That might change once I've had a chance to read the 4E books and the Pathfinder books. Either way, it is shaping up to be a good summer for gamers.

 

[FitzTheRuke]

On the pregens:

The other day I made three characters simply by swapping the races & classes around, and giving them new names, and I am ALREADY more attached to them then any of the pregens. I think that would only increase if I were able to pick their powers...

On negative HP:

Characters don't really need to be "unconscious" while negative, it's just an easy way to make people understand that they can't DO anything. I've always felt that "incapacitated" would be a better neg condition. That way you could cry for help or give an important piece of info before you expire.

As far as getting back up from neg goes:

It's perfectly possible in real life for an injury to LOOK worse than it is, and even to FEEL worse than it is. I assume that the character who's knocked down thinks "Ouch! Is this IT for me?" and characters who see him knocked down think "Ouch! That may be it for him!" but both may find (a few rounds later) that it wasn't as bad as it looked. The trick is to describe things like:

The Ogre's club smacks into Corrin's head with a loud crack. Corrin slumps to the floor with blood pouring from his head.

(He comes to with a ringing headache and has to wipe the blood from his eyes, a large welt on his forehead.)

or

The dragon's breath scorches Tordek, his beard curling up in flames. Screaming, he falls to the floor and thrashes about until he lies still smoking.

(He comes to with a messy beard, holes in his tunic, and painful cracked red skin on his face.)

And so on.

Fitz