Playtested a warmage? Any good?

[Doug McCrae]

Warmages benefit massively from the Arcane Disciple feat. This allows you to add a domain's spells to your spell-list.

 

[NilesB]

Again, though - how is that any different from a fighter? Both characters have the same goal - damaging enemies. They just take different routes to accomplish that goal.

If all you're going to be doing is the same damage as a Fighter, why accept the fragility and limited endurance of an arcanist?

I just think that saying "war mage is weak because it can't do what a wizard can do" is a flawed argument. True, a wizard can cast any spell a warmage can cast... if he memorizes it. And even then, the warmage will be doing more damage with the same spell, and can cast it more times per day.

A Sorceror can do anything a Warmage can do so closely to as well that you'd never notice the difference. All while being ready and able to do many other more useful things.

And the Sorceror is generally considered weaker than the Wizard.

 

[Wik]

If all you're going to be doing is the same damage as a Fighter, why accept the fragility and limited endurance of an arcanist?

There is a variety in what the warmage does and the fighter. The fighter is great at dealing direct damage to a single foe, and taking a bit of damage.

The warmage is good at dealing area damage (read as: taking out mooks), fighting foes with DR/Energy Resistances (no arcane caster is better at taking out foes with energy resistances), and dealing a nice amount of ranged damage.

What I was getting at was that, outside of combat, the Warmage's repetoire of "abilities" is no worse than that of a fighter - and I see plenty of people playing fighters. To say a class is bad because it's "Useless outside of combat" just seems like faulty reasoning to me, since so much of what makes a class "balanced" in D&D is focused around combat.

A Sorceror can do anything a Warmage can do so closely to as well that you'd never notice the difference. All while being ready and able to do many other more useful things.

And the Sorceror is generally considered weaker than the Wizard.

Yes, and no. First of all, a warmage has more combat effects than the sorcerer, by far. He can overcome damage reduction a lot better (due to his numerous energy spells), and typically has a wider range of combat-related effects to choose from. While a sorcerer can take Energy Substitution to increase his range of energy damage, he's wasting a feat for that. And he'd have to use his entire spells known to cover the same range of combat-related spells as the warmage... and he'd still have a lower hit die, less damage (thanks to the keen edge ability), no armour while casting...

So to say that a "a sorcerer can do anything a warmage can do so closely that you'd never notice the difference" is off the mark, I'd say.

 

[SteveC]

A Sorceror can do anything a Warmage can do so closely to as well that you'd never notice the difference. All while being ready and able to do many other more useful things.

And the Sorceror is generally considered weaker than the Wizard.

Such as cast flame strike or blade barrier? No, they can't. And what exactly is more useful then blowin' stuff up?

Warmage spells also do more damage than the sorcerer version, thanks to their edge. Oh, and Warmages get better HP and armor/shield proficiencies and free sudden feats... and can cast in armor.

Seriously: Sorcerers do a lot of things better than warmages, mostly because they can easily choose to take non blasting spells. At the same time, sorcerers aren't better combat casters. It's just that simple.

--Steve

 

[NilesB]

What I was getting at was that, outside of combat, the Warmage's repetoire of "abilities" is no worse than that of a fighter - and I see plenty of people playing fighters. To say a class is bad because it's "Useless outside of combat" just seems like faulty reasoning to me, since so much of what makes a class "balanced" in D&D is focused around combat.

I never said that Warmages are useless out of combat. I said that they have the least broad and flexible array of options of any primary spellcaster. additionally the Warmage lacks the game changing and/or broken effects available to other spellcasters. A Warmage will never call in an ally that can use ninth level spell like abilities at will, if they don't feel like using their ninth level spells. A Warmage Will never Stop Time. A Warmage will never make the party almost unasailable as they rest, or eliminate the need for long distance travel, or bring back the dead, or fly under their own power or any of a dozen other game changing abilities that other spellcasters get.

That is why the Warmage is weak on the scale of primary spellcasters.

Yes, and no. First of all, a warmage has more combat effects than the sorcerer, by far. He can overcome damage reduction a lot better (due to his numerous energy spells), and typically has a wider range of combat-related effects to choose from.

First, Damage Reduction is utterly irrelevant to a Sorcerer. Secondly you are confusing energy types with combat options. There are monsters with enormous piles of hit points and itty bitty Will Save bonuses. I'd rather have a Sorcerer take it out in one go than the Warmage spend round after round and spell after spell pounding at it's point of least vulnerablility and getting pounded in return. If you need to cross a huge bottomless chasm you'd rather have a Sorcerer able to turn in his ability to turn in his lightning bolts to cast fly on the whole party than a Warmage able to turn in his ability to turn in his lightning bolts to throw fireballs instead. and if you meet a behir and the fireball looks more attractive than a lightning bolt, the Sorcerer still has Scorching Ray.

 

[starwed]

Our warmage is the only "wizard-type" in the group, which means no one is doing battlefield control affects.

They do get pyrotechnics, which I've seen work pretty well for this purpose in the past. It's just a bit situational.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

The class can be quite fun if you are content with just blowing stuff up all the time, which isn't so bad.

As others have said: It's like a fighter, except that instead of weapons and fighter feats, you get attack spells (all of them, or nearly so). You get to wear armour (up to heavy with the right feat), you get to use shields, you get to use magic items to protect you (and, if your DM allows that one variant where your extra spells can be from any school if you learn them as one level above what they are usually, you can get a couple of good utility spells in!)

If all you're going to be doing is the same damage as a Fighter, why accept the fragility and limited endurance of an arcanist?

Because it lets you largely ignore the enemies' numbers. One enemy or a dozen, my meteor swarm doesn't care!

A Sorceror can do anything a Warmage can do so closely to as well that you'd never notice the difference.

You might not notice the difference, but many of us do. It's not just the extra damage from warmage edge, it's the fact that you get all the damage spells. You don't have to choose between fireball or lightning bolt at spell level 3, you just get both (and a number of other spells to boot). No matter what it is, it's almost guaranteed that you can hurt it, and hurt it plenty.

 

[satori01]

I think the Warmage is a fine class. It is ultimately a very good class for the math challenged or a new player, pretty much just have to go down the spell list and pick what spell you want to cast, and spell DC's are pretty static.

D6 Hit points is also a nice little boost, ensuring a little bit more hardiness. Intimidate is on the Warmage skill list, so when the class acts as the 'face man', it definitely has a bit different flavor.

It is also a class that will produce regardless of the level. In my secondary campaign the Warmage at 1st & 2nd level was the second highest damage dealer behind only the Barbarian.

In my High Level Campaign the Warmage excels at selecting spells that have interesting secondary effects, like Otiluke's Freezing Sphere.

 

[rgard]

I'm wondering if a warmage is worth even taking for a class. Any opinionated comments and concerns are welcome. I'm wondering if they're balanced, and/or would be useful. New 1st/2nd level campaign. I was thinking of going warmage/fighter->Spellsword but warmage already gets the armored mage ability and it really drops your spellcasting ability to go for spellsword (+1 to spellcasting class every odd level...)

I've seen the class in play and it's fun...lots of blasting.

I would recommend warmage/fighter/eldritch knight instead though. The ASF reduction for spellsword is a bit redundant and doesn't mesh well with the warmage's light and medium armor casting. If you get to 8th level warmage you have medium armor casting with no asf and can boost that to heavy with the one feat. Then do your 1 level of fighter then eldritch knight. You only lose one spell casting level with eldritch knight.

Thanks,
Rich

 

[cignus_pfaccari]

They do get pyrotechnics, which I've seen work pretty well for this purpose in the past. It's just a bit situational.

IIRC, they also have Sleet Storm and Evard's Black Tentacles, which are also nice at battlefield control.

The ASF reduction for spellsword is a bit redundant and doesn't mesh well with the warmage's light and medium armor casting.

Ah, but the first level of Spellsword gives good BAB and two good saves, and the second level gives a bonus feat. That's why I took it, though it did hurt my spellcasting.

Brad