Playtested a warmage? Any good?
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Kae'Yoss
First Post
Nail said:
Really really. It's like Darklone said, and then some:
The skill list stinks compared to the wizard, and since the wizard needs int, anyway, he gets a lot of skill points. Wizards are usually good wells of knowledge, but the Sorcerer doesn't have the class skills, or the skill points, to work that way.
Also, he just doesn't get any bonus feats (something that should have been fixed in 3.5).
He might get his spells spontaneously, but the number of spells he has is limited, so, unlike a wizard, he couldn't really prepare for a big fight, because he simply lacks the ability to change his spell make up (and expendable magic items aren't always a viable solution)
Metamagic, while being spontaneous, extends the casting time, barring sorcerers from using quicken spell (or rods of quicken spell) as a side effect (so when the high-level wizard will unload a meteor swarm followed by horrid wilting, the sorcerer can only do on).
The extra spell slots aren't that big a deal since, as has been mentioned, they lag behind one level with new spell levels.
Of course, some of these things were addressed in extra books (something that should not be necessary IMO), like the option where you don't get a familiar but can use metamagic without extra casting time, or many house rules, but that's neither here nor there.
As far as I know, the sorcerer was brought into 3e late, shortly before the release: You see, they were testing the spontaneous way of spellcasting as the new thing (clerics, getting access to their whole spell lists, were real scary), but that didn't work out, so the wizard, druid, and cleric got the old rules (although the cleric, and later the druid, was given the option to convert some spells). But they didn't want to abandon the new concept, so they let the bard keep it, and introduced a new class which was basically a wizard variant: The sorcerer. Same spells as a wizard, but new concept, different casting attribute, smaller spell list.
What the sorcerer needs:
Some class features, even if it was only bonus feats (maybe sudden metamagic, or those heritage feats)
Earlier access to spell level (that one level lag serves no purpose obvious to me)
Maybe a better HD, as well as more skill points (and a larger class skill list)
But personally, I don't bother with trying to fix the sorcerer, any more, since there are now 4 classes that fill the gap (warlock, warmage, dread necromancer, beguiler, not to mention psionic characters). But they might come up with a real sorcerer class (instead of a disguised wizard variant) in 4e with some distinguishing features. Something which I would applaud.
moritheil
First Post
Even though the sorc gets a huge boost with metamagic sorc in PHBII, the wizard can potentially get something very nice that somewhat evens that out (like the conjurer ability to teleport 10' as an immediate action.)
IMHO the two things that might close the gap are:
1. A DM who isn't stingy about allowing the planar binding spells to work and thus allows the sorc to build up huge armies for no cost but spells expended. (That is how sorcs prepare for big fights, Kae'Yoss. A dozen or so elementals, outsiders, and/or inevitables can tip the scales.
)
2. Multiclassing into paladin for divine grace as part of a fighter/mage build. However, that has no bearing on the straight-classed comparison.
IMHO the two things that might close the gap are:
1. A DM who isn't stingy about allowing the planar binding spells to work and thus allows the sorc to build up huge armies for no cost but spells expended. (That is how sorcs prepare for big fights, Kae'Yoss. A dozen or so elementals, outsiders, and/or inevitables can tip the scales.
)2. Multiclassing into paladin for divine grace as part of a fighter/mage build. However, that has no bearing on the straight-classed comparison.
Nail
First Post
Interesting!Kae'Yoss said:
I agree with the problems you've identified, but I'm not convinced that it makes the class weaker that the Wiz. As we all know, the Sor casts from his spell list spontaneously....and that's often a huge advantage over the Wiz preping his spells. I have very clever players, and yet I still manage to surprise them with situations they aren't prepared for. (How many times has the Wiz not prepared enough Dispel Magics, frex?) The Sor (with a well chose spell list) is *always* prepared.
And given how restricted the spell lists of the Beguiler or Warmage are ("If you only have a hammer, every problem looks like a nail!"), I'm equally not convinced these are better than the Sor.
Still it's very interesting to see the "general preception" of the Sor (on this thread, at least) to be that the Wiz >> Sor. Quite a change from a few years ago.
Wik
First Post
part of the reason wizards get more love, too, is due to Meta-Play issues. When you're playing a sorcerer, your chances to get new spells are fairly limited, so you stick to the big spells.
As a wizard, you get a chance to play around with spells - if "Bigby's Foo Fighter Hand" turns out to be a dud, oh well. Plus, as the player of the wizard, when I buy a new book (which come out, like, every month) I can scribe one of the new spells to my list almost right away. As a sorcerer, I look at the same book, and sigh wistfully.
That being said, the sorcerer is vastly preferred in my gaming group, but we tend to play at lower levels where the wizard is fairly crippled.
I still don't see how the Warmage could be considered the "weakest" of arcane casters, either - I know our group in STAP has wished for a warmage in the group at least as often as they've wished for other casters (including a cleric!)
As a wizard, you get a chance to play around with spells - if "Bigby's Foo Fighter Hand" turns out to be a dud, oh well. Plus, as the player of the wizard, when I buy a new book (which come out, like, every month) I can scribe one of the new spells to my list almost right away. As a sorcerer, I look at the same book, and sigh wistfully.
That being said, the sorcerer is vastly preferred in my gaming group, but we tend to play at lower levels where the wizard is fairly crippled.
I still don't see how the Warmage could be considered the "weakest" of arcane casters, either - I know our group in STAP has wished for a warmage in the group at least as often as they've wished for other casters (including a cleric!)
Victim
First Post
A warmage is kind of like a sorcerer, except that some goofball picked a bunch of largely redundant spells. The warmage's absolute advantage in blasting comes down to a small bonus to damage and the ability to attack with every energy type. Too bad warmages don't have the knowledge skills to discern monster resistances and thus effectively select their energy attacks.
The Kineticist is a better blaster than the warmage, can also wear armor, and is more versatile.
Quite frankly, the new themed classes are exactly the opposite of a good sorcerer. Theme is anathema to the sorcerer class. The warmage, beguiler, and dread necromancer are more like specialist wizards intensified to be separate classes. The warmage is the evoker, with some of the better attack spells with other schools (and classes!). The beguiler is the illusionist/enchanter combo, and gets sufficient skills to disappear, trick, and charm with mundane as well as magical methods. The dread necromancer combines arcane and divine necromancy, some tools to buff up their undead, lichy abilities, and then some other BBEG stuff (planar bindings, geas).
Besides mass bindings, a sorcerer can easily prepare for a fight. How, you ask? First, look at how a wizard prepares: he purchases (or otherwise aquires) scrolls, and scribes them into his spellbook, and then can prepare them when needed or produce several scrolls of his own cheaply. Without additional spells, the wizard scarcely has an advantage in spells known over a sorcerer. A sorcerer just has to get scrolls and use them. He may bear some added costs since he has to pay for each use (or pay more, if the wizard is scribing scrolls of his utility spells), but he also doesn't have the expense of a spellbook.
It's the themed casters that can't really prepare for a fight. How can a warmage gear up for a tough fight? What scrolls are they going to use - more copies of spells they can already cast in abundance? If their limited range of abilities isn't going to cut, they either have to get someone/thing else to take care of things (granted, beguilers and dread necs can be good with indirect methods), or go Use Magic Device.
The Kineticist is a better blaster than the warmage, can also wear armor, and is more versatile.
Quite frankly, the new themed classes are exactly the opposite of a good sorcerer. Theme is anathema to the sorcerer class. The warmage, beguiler, and dread necromancer are more like specialist wizards intensified to be separate classes. The warmage is the evoker, with some of the better attack spells with other schools (and classes!). The beguiler is the illusionist/enchanter combo, and gets sufficient skills to disappear, trick, and charm with mundane as well as magical methods. The dread necromancer combines arcane and divine necromancy, some tools to buff up their undead, lichy abilities, and then some other BBEG stuff (planar bindings, geas).
Besides mass bindings, a sorcerer can easily prepare for a fight. How, you ask? First, look at how a wizard prepares: he purchases (or otherwise aquires) scrolls, and scribes them into his spellbook, and then can prepare them when needed or produce several scrolls of his own cheaply. Without additional spells, the wizard scarcely has an advantage in spells known over a sorcerer. A sorcerer just has to get scrolls and use them. He may bear some added costs since he has to pay for each use (or pay more, if the wizard is scribing scrolls of his utility spells), but he also doesn't have the expense of a spellbook.
It's the themed casters that can't really prepare for a fight. How can a warmage gear up for a tough fight? What scrolls are they going to use - more copies of spells they can already cast in abundance? If their limited range of abilities isn't going to cut, they either have to get someone/thing else to take care of things (granted, beguilers and dread necs can be good with indirect methods), or go Use Magic Device.
Victim
First Post
Nail said:
Since I'm playing a Dread Necromancer, I might as well elaborate. My character's abilities aren't really able to amp up for a major battle. Most of my buffs are simple things like Deathward and False Life. We're playing Ebberon, so she does have Action Surge for rapid casting when needed though. That's a big help.
What can change is what other stuff I bring along. Planar Binding can provide a few extra creatures with abilities I don't have. Planar Binding also uses Dimensional Anchor and Magic Circle, which I don't have. If my character wants to quickly, safely, and efficiently bind entities, then she needs to request aid from our wizard or artificer. And they can do planar binding themselves, if they really want to (of course, having the highest CHA can help).
She can also bring along more undead. But all of my really dangerous undead that she can't normally take along are really big. Bringing along more Large and Huge undead isn't easy - our group's teleportation ability is overtaxed as is. Packing up the whole force and taking it to another continent is non-trivial. It's more difficult to handle all the teleports than it is for a prep caster to change his spells for a particular fight (because it has to be a normal caster doing the teleports). Also, my undead horde is largely static in composition; it can't be readily retooled to suit particular opponents. I'd have to track down the monsters I want to kill and animate them.
With a warlock, artificer, and wizard in the group, it seemed like going for UMD would be largely wasted.
So most of my preparation based abilities require the assistance of a real caster. A familar with invisibility and commune isn't too bad for information gathering though.
