Please no monster class levels

[Janaxstrus]

Player fighters get to do things monster fighter's don't.

Monster fighters get to do thing player fighter's don't.

A monster fighter isn't a player fighter.



-YRUSirius

What can a Fighter 4 human (with a PC designation) do that a fighter 4 human (NPC designation) can't do?

You won't find anything, because a level 4 fighter is a level 4 fighter.

Same question with a Fighter 4 human vs a fighter 4 troll? Now, if you found something, remove it if it has to do with the race of the creature.

What's left? Nothing. Because a 4th level fighter is a 4th level fighter.

 

[Dausuul]

Dragons get to do things non-dragons don't.
Trolls get to do things non-trolls don't.

Fighters get to do things fighters don'....OH WAIT.
Not how it should work. A fighter is a fighter. A wizard is a wizard. A rogue is a rogue. They can be built differently, but if a 4th level troll wizard can cast Wish, while a 4th level elf wizard can't, something is broken.

A 4th-level troll wizard cannot cast wish. On the other hand, a 4th-level troll trogdormeister* can certainly cast wish. The players do not get to look at the troll's stat sheet, nor do their PCs have encyclopedic knowledge of the entire game world, so they don't know that this troll is a trogdormeister or what it can do. Therefore, the DM does not need to work out all the details of the trogdormeister PRC, and can in fact simply say "This troll can cast wish."

Some level of consistency is appropriate; a monster which is explicitly presented as a wizard should play by wizard rules, unless of course it doesn't, in which case the DM should acknowledge that something unusual is going on. But a monster that is not presented as a wizard can have its own rules.

[size=-2]*An obscure prestige class, available only to trolls who took a special oath to the Burninator in the Year of the Questing Peasant.[/size]

 

[GX.Sigma]

They can be built differently, but if a 4th level troll wizard can cast Wish, while a 4th level elf wizard can't, something is broken.

Maybe this troll studied a different type of magic than is available to PCs? Maybe this troll is not a "wizard" as described in the PHB (which only describes one kind of wizard)? Maybe this troll finds Wish easier to cast due to innate talent?

I like to think of the class system as a construct that allows the players to build interesting characters with somewhat arbitrary limits in the interest of balance and ease of use, rather than universal laws that say "every creature in the universe that casts spells uses this very specific progression and has these arbitrary limits."

 

[YRUSirius]

What can a Fighter 4 human (with a PC designation) do that a fighter 4 human (NPC designation) can't do?

The fighter 4 human (NPC designation) can do whatever the fiction calls for, so whatever the dm says.

You don't need the same rules to balance the dm side of things with the players side of things. As I said: This ISN'T an arms race. If you play D&D like this, then maybe this might be the problem instead.

What you DO need though are same rules to balance things between the players. THIS is important.

-YRUSirius

 

[Janaxstrus]

The fighter 4 human (NPC designation) can do whatever the fiction calls for, so whatever the dm says.

You don't need the same rules to balance the dm side of things with the players side of things.

What you DO need though are same rules to balance things between the players. THIS is important.

-YRUSirius

I disagree completely. Internal consistency of a world is huge for many players.
If it can be done by an NPC, it can be done by a PC, otherwise it DOES became a DM vs Players situation.

Because I said so, is not how I DM, nor would I play in a game where that was commonplace.

 

[Steely_Dan]

One of my favourite aspects of 4th Ed is Monster design/implementation (like 1st/2nd Ed); the pre-E classes, not so much.

 

[Derren]

There's a monster in one adventure. He can slice your face and blind you with claws from his shadow. He can turn insubstantial and phase through walls. He can dual-wield his claw and a pistol, and move 15 ft. between the two attacks.

One of my players -- his PC is a knight -- said, "Hey, how come I can't do what he does?"

I said, "Gain 8 levels, get nearly killed in a horrible magical experiment, and devote yourself to moving fast as you kill people. I'm sure he feels the same way about you, wondering how he can manage to knock someone 10 ft. whenever he hits them, or how to get free attacks whenever you attack one of his allies."

The PCs see an orc who rushes into the middle of a group of militia and with incredibly fast and well placed strikes kills all of them within seconds.

The player of the fighter asks "Hey, how come I can't do what he does"?

"Well, when you gain a few more levels, maybe slay a demon or Hydra on the way while constantly practicing your agility while also not forgetting your wits you might some day be able to do what this unimportant and in no way special orc goon does which whom you will encounter several dozen times during this adventure."

"Peh" said the player of the wizard then. "At least you can do it somehow. I can never raise a zombie like this Necromancer we fought months ago. You remember, that pushover who couldn't even cast 2nd level spells?.
But no, raising zombies is not for heroes. At least not the ones you can use for anything else than as a butler who doesn't fight."

 

[Dausuul]

The PCs see an orc who rushes into the middle of a group of militia and with incredibly fast and well placed strikes kills all of them within seconds.

The player of the fighter asks "Hey, how come I can't do what he does?"

"You haven't been blessed by the orcish god of slaughter. Since the god of slaughter is not a robot who spits out blessings when you push the button, you have no idea what you'd have to do to earn that blessing, but feel free to try. Going back in time and arranging to have been born an orc would be a good start."

"Peh" said the player of the wizard then. "At least you can do it somehow. I can never raise a zombie like this Necromancer we fought months ago. You remember, that pushover who couldn't even cast 2nd level spells?"

"You haven't learned the secret arts of the Nine Lost Necromancers, which take approximately sixty years of study to master--why do you think he was so old and frail? Of course, all he got for those sixty years was the ability to raise a few zombies, and he got his butt handed to him by a bunch of wet-behind-the-ears adventurers. Right now his ghost is wondering how you threw that blast of fire that burned up all his zombies. He's pretty bitter about it, thinks you ought to play by the same rules as everybody else."

Note: This post is not meant as an endorsement of the travesty that is 4E animate dead, or for that matter 3E animate dead. We haven't had proper PC necromancers since AD&D. However, that's a separate question from whether it's justifiable that NPCs can do special stuff.

 

[Derren]

"You haven't been blessed by the orcish god of slaughter. Since the god of slaughter is not a robot who spits out blessings when you push the button, you have no idea what you'd have to do to earn that blessing, but feel free to try. Going back in time and arranging to have been born an orc would be a good start."

That orc god sure must be busy because every orc under the sun seems to be able to do that. Why can't my god, the god of war whos clergy is actively fighting against the orcs do some blessing on his own?

"You haven't learned the secret arts of the Nine Lost Necromancers, which take approximately sixty years of study to master--why do you think he was so old and frail? Of course, all he got for those sixty years was the ability to raise a few zombies, and he got his butt handed to him by a bunch of wet-behind-the-ears adventurers. Right now his ghost is wondering how you threw that blast of fire that burned up all his zombies. He's pretty bitter about it, thinks you ought to play by the same rules as everybody else."

Well, that guy must have been a fast learner because he was hardly 20. And when you can't even cast an acid arrow how should you throw fireballs around? At his age I couldn't do that either, but I also stayed by my master to learn instead of running away with a necromantic tome which I can't use no matter how much I try.

 

[YRUSirius]

Well, that guy must have been a fast learner because he was hardly 20.

Other character: "Why do you expect to be trained in the same techniques as him? He dabbled in dark secrets - did you? You just went to the Universal College of Dumbleyore..."

-YRUSirius