Please no monster class levels

[RangerWickett]

When you have a player who wants to do something that is not explicitly covered in the rules, you can either say no, or you can say yes. So . . . um, say yes (with a few appropriate caveats). How hard is that?



Player: "Dear GM, at 1st level we fought a spellcaster who zapped us with necrotic energy and commanded undead. Why can't I do the same thing at 1st level?"

GM: "Did you ask? Okay, you're asking now. If it matters to you so much, sure, we can make it work.

"Now, there's a limit to how much any given character can learn, at least at low level. And the game designers haven't yet included options for commanding hordes of undead, so we're going to have to improvise. How about this? Instead of playing a 'wizard' with access to lots of spells, we limit you to just necromancy, at least until 5th level or so. To balance that out, you get a pet zombie who improves as you level up, sort of a cross between a druid's pet wolf and a familiar."

Player: "But the necromancer had a whole swarm of undead. I want a swarm of undead."

GM: "You're being a little greedy. He was not a '1st-level NPC who could command a swarm of undead.' He was a 1st-level NPC who, in order to be a challenge for your party, was encountered along with a swarm of undead that were cooperating with him, but weren't under his control. So hypothetically you might be able to manage this. Your main pet zombie, it'll do what you say regardless. But the other ones you'd have to feed regularly, and they probably wouldn't work well with a party of living adventurers."

 

[WarlockLord]

That's not a fix. Poor game design justified by "they can make their own things" is not a good thing.

And again, we get back to our special heroes who are basically being told, no, you can't because...no. This isn't some "I want to have all the money in the world" wish, this is "I want to play a creature I've seen in the world who follows its laws".

If you were going to see a six-year-old kid's violin concert, and he had been struggling to play Twinkle Twinkle Little Star, and halfway through his rendition (missing half the notes), he suddenly went way up the fingerboard and starting playing Bruch? It's the exact same thing with your orc fighter who knows Whirlwind Attack but apparently can't do a basic parry. It doesn't make sense.

Really, all the replies I'm seeing from the "player's can't have nice things" crowd seems to be "well, we don't want people to have it, so we will screw them out of it on dubious roleplaying concerns."

But hey, if your campaigns feature fifth level wizards throwing wail of the banshee on fifth level PCs, I guess they won't complain because it's too metagamey.

 

[Lord Mhoram]

If you don't care about consistency then thats ok.

But a lot of people do and they want only a necromancer class, no matter who takes it. Everything else would be silly.

That is where I stand. having the PCs and NPCs build differently (especially an NPC Human at 4th level fighter and a PC human 4th level fighter). If they are not built with the same rules, then it kills verisimilitude for me. It really breaks my ability to GM as it kills my willing suspension of disbelief.

Rules are rules and apply to all (PC, NPC and Monster) alike - both is combat and in Chargen.

 

[YRUSirius]

And I'll still build my monsters as I like as long as I built them as a fair challenge for my players. Players who start to cry cause they want that specific power of a monster npc can kiss my...

Who says that the npc does use a pc class after all? Do they have my notes?

-YRUSirius

 

[Ratskinner]

The PCs see an orc who rushes into the middle of a group of militia and with incredibly fast and well placed strikes kills all of them within seconds.

The player of the fighter asks "Hey, how come I can't do what he does"?

"Well, when you gain a few more levels, maybe slay a demon or Hydra on the way while constantly practicing your agility while also not forgetting your wits you might some day be able to do what this unimportant and in no way special orc goon does which whom you will encounter several dozen times during this adventure."

If I may...Well there's your problem!

The better answer, IME is "How are trying to find out?" or "You don't know, you've never seen anything like it." or the ever popular and comedic "Are you asking him?"

If the fighter really wanted to fight like that orc, I'd happily write up some side-quest for him to find the orcish Yoda (or whatever) so that he could retrain with some orc-flavored maneuvers. That's DM work that's rewarding. It makes the campaign and the character more interesting and unique.

What's not rewarding? Spending half an hour or more working up stats for some Clr3/Wiz3/Prc2 dude and then watching him perish in flames by round 2.

Look, if WOTC works it out so that adding 5 levels of cleric to an existing monster or NPC is a 2 minute operation...then fine, that's awesome. However, I'm not holding my breath. I just think its (probably) far easier to whip up that 7th level Kobold Shaman by starting with a 7th level Kobold, and then tacking on some "Shaman" juice (or vice versa, tack some Koboldity onto a 7th level artillery/leader template.) Speed of prep for the DM is the crux of the whole issue, for me.

 

[pemerton]

we get back to our special heroes who are basically being told, no, you can't because...no.

It's not the hero - the PC - who is being told "no". It's the player. And a reason is being given - namely, that being able to do what the NPC necromancer can do would break the game.

For similar reasons, I've never come across a level-based game in which a 1st level PC can start as a king with a retinue of servants and alchemists and chest after chest of gold, even though there are first level NPC kings and nobles in the world.

It's the exact same thing with your orc fighter who knows Whirlwind Attack but apparently can't do a basic parry. It doesn't make sense.

Huh? A 3rd level Orc with whirlwind attack can, as far as I'm aware, have the same BAB as a 4th level fighter. The fighter has a +1 level advantage which the Orc matches with a +1 STR advantage. And the Orc, with its better strength, may well do more damage.

And, as I noted above, 3E has plenty of room for 20th level fighters who can't whirlwind attack, even though they could beat up 4th level fighters at will. There is no general assumption, in the world of 3E, that all and only the best fighters can whirlwind attack. (There was such a rule in AD&D, but it only applied to foes of less than 1 HD.)

 

[Janaxstrus]

It's not the hero - the PC - who is being told "no". It's the player. And a reason is being given - namely, that being able to do what the NPC necromancer can do would break the game.

For similar reasons, I've never come across a level-based game in which a 1st level PC can start as a king with a retinue of servants and alchemists and chest after chest of gold, even though there are first level NPC kings and nobles in the world.

Huh? A 3rd level Orc with whirlwind attack can, as far as I'm aware, have the same BAB as a 4th level fighter. The fighter has a +1 level advantage which the Orc matches with a +1 STR advantage. And the Orc, with its better strength, may well do more damage.

And, as I noted above, 3E has plenty of room for 20th level fighters who can't whirlwind attack, even though they could beat up 4th level fighters at will. There is no general assumption, in the world of 3E, that all and only the best fighters can whirlwind attack. (There was such a rule in AD&D, but it only applied to foes of less than 1 HD.)

Attack Bonus =/= BAB

My problem isn't that 20th level fighters DON'T have whirlwind or <insert power here> it's the 3rd level fighter who CAN'T have it, while an orc of the same level CAN by DM fiat. Personally, if I can't do it right, I'll do something else. The rules exist. Use them

 

[CM]

I have found that mature players accept that they are playing a game, and some things would just be unfair to the DM and to the other players if they had access them. The game is about overcoming the odds when the deck is stacked against you.

I certainly would not enjoy having a player in my game who was hounding me for justification on how that level-5 necromancer had a skeleton army or that level 3 orc could whirlwind when he couldn't.

 

[Janaxstrus]

I have found that mature players accept that they are playing a game, and some things would just be unfair to the DM and to the other players if they had access them. The game is about overcoming the odds when the deck is stacked against you.

I certainly would not enjoy having a player in my game who was hounding me for justification on how that level-5 necromancer had a skeleton army or that level 3 orc could whirlwind when he couldn't.

My players never hound me, because I use the rules of the gaming system and make everything transparent.

"Because I said so" is a copout.

 

[pemerton]

Attack Bonus =/= BAB

But how is that relevant in a comparison between a 3rd level orc with 2 more points of STR than a 4th level PC fighter? There are no iterative attacks in play. Even supposing either or both has Power Attack or Combat Expertise, it's going to be an extreme corner case in which (i) the PC puts more than 3 points of BAB into defence or damage, and (ii) this makes a difference that reveals some ingame, fictional state of affairs about the comparative finesse of the two characters.

My problem isn't that 20th level fighters DON'T have whirlwind or <insert power here> it's the 3rd level fighter who CAN'T have it, while an orc of the same level CAN by DM fiat. Personally, if I can't do it right, I'll do something else. The rules exist. Use them

I thought we discussing what makes for a good rule. What is the point of a rule that says, for an NPC to be able to attack all adjacent foes with a single action, it must have at least 4 HD? What is that adding to the game?

As the discussion of the orc reveals, it doesn't add anything to the coherence of the fiction - there is no discernible ingame difference between a 3 HD orc and a 4th level fighter.

And what does it add at the metagame level? How does it make the play experience better?