Please rate Delay Spell

[Celebrim]

And the way you use this feat is (for instance) stack 3 or 4 spells to go off in the same round, and then spend 1-2 rounds making double move/runs + move slightly to get away before the fun starts. Or you stack 5 spells to go off in the same round that you attack by surprise from a distance, hitting the opponent simulataneously with 7-8 spells. If one of those spells is teleport... If you do this and maximize you're initiative and ability to suprise, you can frequently get off a whole combat's worth of attacks AND NOT RECIEVE A REPLY.

You mix a couple of threatening spells with a couple of spells designed cause delays - monster summoning, web, stinking cloud, obscuring mist, whatever.

You hit and run. Then you hit and run again.

 

[Saeviomagy]

This is a feat which does not have alot of good symmetric uses, and as such won't benifit the average PC party.

This is a feat for individuals who solve problems with extreme stealth, reconaisance, and trickery and are probably acting alone.

I've had a character that could have made alot of use of this feat, but for standard PC's, it's pretty useless.

I'm not going to convince you that at a +3 penalty this is a better than average feat - even I don't believe that. But if you think this is a useless feat, give it to a high level Arcane Trickster or spell oriented Assassine NPC and use him as a foil for the PC party. Skilled use of this feat could be REALLY annoying, and I (having played that sort of character as a PC) can tell you that the designers probably were right to err on the side of caution with 'delayed' spells.

But that doesn't mean I don't think it wouldn't be better balanced at +2.

But +1 would make it _WAY_ too good of a spell.

+1 makes it way too good? It's only 1 to 5 rounds. Hell, at 5th caster level, even the "save up a rounds per level buff" tactic is lost to extend spell... Even if it WAS +1.

As for using it in some stealthy way - please, please, please tell me how. I want to know. I really want someone to say how it's more powerful when compared with something like an illusion spell.

The demon threatening tactic is... pretty crud. For a start it still requires an intimidate check. Second up - actually blasting him would sound like a far better proof of your power than setting them up delayed...

 

[Sollir Furryfoot]

Hypersmurf, after the first attack is used against the fiend, the magic circle breaks and the fiend can do whatever it likes...heh-thus, no more bargaining either can be made (that's enforced through the spell)

-Intimidate check is only a guideline, and skill checks aren't always a substitute for roleplaying. Honestly, using the skills system, a level 21 rogue with the right feats and items can easily intimidate Zeus

 

[Saeviomagy]

If one of those spells is teleport... If you do this and maximize you're initiative and ability to suprise, you can frequently get off a whole combat's worth of attacks AND NOT RECIEVE A REPLY.

If one of those spells is teleport, then it's an 8th level spell.

When contingency is a 6th level spell. Hell, for an 8th level slot you could have fired off symbol spell.

And this is a good tactic how?

Next up - the setting them up and then getting away thing - you'd need to be guessing where your opponents were going to be. You'd still be spotted and heard when you cast the spells, not when they take effect later. Your opponents are going to move about. Hell, they'll probably kill you while you fire up all your sequential spells.

See? it's useless even for setting up an ambush unless you use spells without a V component.

In fact, the only thing that I can imagine using it for is to cast some long-lasting damage spell after you've put up an otilukes resilient sphere or wall of force.

Even then, I'm sure I could think up a much better tactic.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Sollir - glad to see that you're one of those "social skills don't matter a damn in my game, because I don't know how to use them" people.

So the rogue intimidates Zeus. The guys frigging 21st level and a skilled intimidator! This is more a function of the D&DG book being crap when looked at under the ELH than a flaw with the intimidate skill.

Simply put - if you fail to intimidate the fiend, he just goes "Oh, no! You're going to kill me, sending me back to my home plane? My goodness! Or not, as the case may be.". Regardless of the BS mumbo jumbo you just spouted - he's still not gonna believe you'll do it. If your character has no intimidate skill, he's not intimidating.

 

[Sollir Furryfoot]

Saeviomagy:

I really don't quite agree with you on your comprehension of me...however, I would suggest you take a look at Sepulchrave's storyhour (if you haven't already) for some excellant roleplaying when it concerns binding fiends...not to mention all the other glorious written work he has there.

As to your 21st level rogue argument, Zeus is a Divine Rank 19, 50th-level equivilant character and the head of a pantheon, I don't think a rogue who's significantly less powerful than him should be able to intimidate him-by the rules, which gives the Rogue an easy DC to make and that's it.

Besides, read up on spells with the [Calling] descriptor, all outsiders are pulled fully into the plane, meaning-if they die, they aren't sent back to their home plane like summoned creatures, they die permanently.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Hypersmurf, after the first attack is used against the fiend, the magic circle breaks and the fiend can do whatever it likes...

That's debatable.

A normal Magic Circle Against Evil collapses if "the warded creature" makes an attack - ie, the target of the spell, Creature Touched.

But an inward-aimed circle is a special case, and "the warded creature" is not an applicable concept. The spell does not in this case emanate from "Creature Touched" but surrounds the outsider... and it would be a pretty poor magical prison if it collapsed when the only candidate for "the warded creature" - the outsider trapped within it - made an attack!

-Hyp.

 

[Sollir Furryfoot]

Hypersmurf, I think it would be wise to not get into "things debatable", since, as per core rules right now it is actually impossible to cast an inwardly focused Magic Circle vs. Evil spell + a Binding spell without having at least 2 characters working on it.

That being said, I think it goes against the spirit of the rules (does that even exist anymore? ) to allow any character to conjure up a few devils and kill them without the fiends having almost zero chance to break free.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Hypersmurf, I think it would be wise to not get into "things debatable", since, as per core rules right now it is actually impossible to cast an inwardly focused Magic Circle vs. Evil spell + a Binding spell without having at least 2 characters working on it.

You figure this how?

-Hyp.

 

[Sollir Furryfoot]

From the SRD (Under Conjuration):
When focused inward, a magic circle spell binds a called creature for a maximum of 24 hours per caster level, provided that the character casts the spell that calls the creature within 1 round of casting the magic circle.

The casting time of a binding spell is 10 minutes, not 1 action or even 1 full round.

Although I suppose that's debatable too, since it doesn't say 'completes' the spell, I can see it being arguable though.