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Please rate Knock-Down

Please rate the usefullness/must have of Knock-Back

  • 1 - You should never take this feat

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • 2- Not very useful

    Votes: 2 3.7%
  • 3- of limited use

    Votes: 4 7.4%
  • 4- below average

    Votes: 1 1.9%
  • 5- Average

    Votes: 5 9.3%
  • 6- above average

    Votes: 5 9.3%
  • 7- above average and cool

    Votes: 16 29.6%
  • 8- good

    Votes: 12 22.2%
  • 9- Very good

    Votes: 8 14.8%
  • 10- Everyone should take this feat

    Votes: 1 1.9%

smetzger

Explorer
Please rate the usefulness/must have of the Knock-Down feat.

Knock-Down [General]
REQ: Base Attack bonus +2, Improved Trip, Str 15+
Whenever you deal more than 10 or more points of damage to your opponent in melee, you may make a trip attack as a free action against the same target.
Use of this feat cannot be combined with Improved Trip to generate an extra attack, and successful use of this feat does not grant an extra attack through Cleave or Great Cleave feats.
Sword and Fist, pg 7
 
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Just as an aside, to show one of hte places where Knockdown can SHINE (this is a pretty cheesy combo, bear with me):

Knockdown and all prerequisites, Spiked chain (including specialisation in it), and Combat Reflexes, and a Strength score of 18 or more. Dexterity of 13+ optional but very useful; Intelligence 13+ required for some feats.

Specifically, presuming a straight-class human fighter:

FEATS
... Racial; Exotic weapon, Spiked Chain
... Ch-1; Expertise
... Ftr-1; Weapon Focus, Spiked Chain
... Ftr-2; Improved Trip
... Ch-3; Knockdown
... Ftr-4; Weapon Specialisation
... Ch-6; Combat Reflexes
... Ftr-6; Expert Tactician

ATTRIBUTES for this example; remember, at Level 4 a single +1 is gained:
... STR; 18
... DEX; 14+
... INT; 13+

RESULT:

A Fighter-6 has a BAB of +6/+1

18 Strength is a Strength modifier of +4
... that's +4 attack
... with a two-handed weapon, that's +6 damage

The Spiked Chain is a 2H weapon doing 2d4 base damage
... with Strength and Specialisation, that's 2d4+8
... ... which is a range of 10-18 per blow
... ... whichis an average of 15 per blow
... with a +1 weapon, it becomes 2d4+9
... ... which is a range of 11-19 per blow
... ... which is an average of 16 per blow

The fighter's net to-hit, assuming a +1 weapon, is +12/+7

Combat reflexes and Dexterity 14+ produces a total of 3 Attacks of Opportunity (AO) per round, maximum.

Expert Tactician produces (errata) an extra melee action during any round you deny an opponent their Dexterity bonus to AC

...

So. The Spiked Chain is the only PHB reach weapon that can also hit foes only 5' fom the wielder, wihtout the wielder having to move at all. This is key; this combination works VERY well when defending a narrow-ish (up to 25' wide) corridor, bridge, or what have you; it is an excellent combination for holding ground (and not too shabby at taking ground either).

The trick is this: when the round begins, Combat Reflexes allows you to take AO's even when flatfooted; thus, anything that closes for melee with you during a surprise round, if the chain is ready, suffers an AO; at 8th level, take Quickdraw, and even that requirement might be suspended, at the GM's discretion.

If you hit (you do NOT want to use Power Attack here, you want to whore for attack bonusses like there's no tomorrow), you will cause at LEAST 10 points of damage; this allows the Knockdown feat's free trip; if you trip, Improved Trip allows a free follow-up attack. Also if you trip, prone creatures are denied DEX bonusses to AC, which gives you the partial action from Expert Tactician, by which you can whack them again. After potentially gettign whacked three times with a 10-18 damage attack (sans weapon-based enhancements; many 6thlevel fighters will have a +1 to +3 magic weapon) as part of a single AO, the target of your affections should be feeling quite unhappy, if it is still even mobile. Subsequent AO's willnot produce a partial action, of course, as Expert Tactician will have already been used for that round.

Special note regarding Knockdown and Improved Trip: IMO, and IMC, a prone creature cannot be tripped; the rules may or may not support this, but I am NOT trying to create an infinite-loop combination!

Special note regarding tripping an opponent, and Expert Tactician: while merely being Prone does not deny one their DEX bonus to AC (PHB page 132, table 8-8), being "off balance" does (same page, same table, one entry down), and IMO and IMC, being tripped does definitely count as being put "off-balance" until that character's next action; the victim of the trip has, after all, just been ignominiously dumped upon their petard, against their wishes ...

Now, here's where the tactics comes in. On your action, if you don't NEED to advance ... READY ACTION. Specifically, ready to "whack the first guy to cross X line *draw or indicate line on battle map* and still be standing". The idea is, now you have (due to the readied action) FOUR tries to stop people from crossign a line 5 feet ahead of you, and twenty five feet from side to side -- hurting them grievously in the process. If one of the first three tries fails, that *will* trigger the Readied Action, sine they will "still be standing".

Now, all said and done, you've a pile of folks on their backsides at your feet. It takes a move-equivalent action to stand up,so they won't be using Full Attacks against you, unless they remain prone. If they do, you get a +4 to hit themyourself, and they suffer a -4 on their attempts to hit YOU (again, table 8-8 on PHB page 132). Also remember, by the way, that you will get that +4 to hit for that single extra melee action produced by Expert Tactician, if you use it on someone you've just knocked down.

Another benefit is, on their first round -- they have laready moved, so, to stand up will result in a double-move, and not allow them to make an attack at all. Otherwise, they remain prone, suffer a -4 penalty to attack, and give you a +4 to hit them during the next round.

Magic weaponry makes this even more fun; a key arrangement IMO would be +1, Sure Striking, and Ghost Touch. Bonus damage is nice but not neccessary; as long as your minimum damage is 10 (Sure Striking helps insure that), you're all set. With a +2 weapon enhancement, or, a 20 strength and a +1 weapon, you don't even have to specialise -- freeing up one or two feats (Specialisation and Focus).

A good suggesation for a choice of magic Spiked Chain (a Sure-Striking Spiked Chain +1 of Ghost Touch -- a real mouthful, eh? be smart, give it a fancy name, if only for brevity's sake :D ) is thus a market-price +3 weapon, or, 18,000gp, plus cost of MW chain. Get a bit fancy, using Magic of Faerun, and make it of an extraordinary material ... I would actually suggest "Living Metal" for it's self-regenerative properties, aiding you against hte nigh-inevitable Sunder attacks a DM would throw against a monster so dependant on his weapon. The total cost is then (including Livign Metal construction, shich satisfies Masterwork status for enchantment) 19,525gp; pricy, so not available until at LEAST 8th level (possibly later, since even at 8th level it's most of the characetrs wealth-allowed), but it's all the character will ever NEED to have, period (barring ELH enhancements,which I have not yet seen, and so, cannot speak to). Dropping the Ghost Touch lowers the price to 9,525gp, affordable for 6th level, fairly reasonable for 8th level, and makes sure that only incorporeal creatures will be resistant to your attacks (how do you trip a ghost, anyway?).

I'd also suggest some nonmagical backup chains. Well-hidden-upon-your-person ones. :D

Such a character can, for style, choose to gain the Master of Chains Prestige Class somwhere after 8th level, with relative ease. However, right from 6th level, when THIS black knight says "NONE SHALL PASS" ... he means it!! :D

...

Now ... does THAT increase folks' appreciation for the Knockdown feat? :D

Note: aside from the issue of reach, most of the benefits of putting people prone can be had with other high-damage-output weapons, especially 2H weapons like Falchions and Greatswords.

Also note, normal-reach weapons can produce the AO as they LEAVE your threatened area to close to 5', but you need to step 5' back; for characters wishing to use such weapons, I would replace the "Exotic Weapon" feat with "Hold The Line", which requires rearrangement of the entire feat selection list but it can still be done.
 

This is a very useful feat for any high strength, high damage output fighter. It has the potential to keep most of his opponents from ever getting multiple attacks on him and giving his secondary and tertiary attacks +4 to hit.

The only problem with this feat is the prerequisites: most high strength, high damage output fighters will not have a 13+ int and expertise, improved trip.
 

Pax said:
this allows the Knockdown feat's free trip; if you trip, Improved Trip allows a free follow-up attack. Also if you trip, prone creatures are denied DEX bonusses to AC, which gives you the partial action from Expert Tactician

Only the Knockdown feat specifically says improved trip cannot be used in combination with the knockdown trip.

Also, your "interpretation" aside, prone DOES NOT = Loss of Dex Bonus. See chart on page 132, it's pretty specific as well.

You know, if I throw my PH out, I too can come up with some pretty amazing combinations!
 

Mistwell said:

Only the Knockdown feat specifically says improved trip cannot be used in combination with the knockdown trip.

Actually, the Knockdown feat does not state that.

The errata to the Knockdown feat states that.

Personally, I think Knockdown is fairly potent. I understand the errata is there to make it less potent, but I thought that was a crappy way to do it.

Improved Trip is a prerequisite, but cannot be used with it. Huh? Yeah, that makes sense.

I think that by the time characters can get Knockdown, they are in good shape. Most of their successful attacks will in fact do 10 or more points of damage and they get to choose whether to Knockdown or not, so most of the time they choose, they will win the opposed roll. Obviously, you will not attempt this against a Troll or Giant.

So, this can result in powerful combinations, even without the extra Trip attack.

I full round attack you. Somewhere in there, I knock you down. Since getting up is a move equivalent action, you cannot full round attack back.

This seems like a fairly potent attack option. Actually unbalanced in my opinion.
 

My Ranger/Fighter took this feat - and he is very similar to the presentend combo here (Combat Reflexes? For sure!), though he is not Focused or Specialized in this weapon - , and it can be very useful - If you have a DM that doesn't throw enemies 7 CR "points" above your level at you, doesn't love to use gargantuan zombies and similar creatures... :(

I said it is above average, because it basically gives you a free attempt to trip an opponent, even if there is only a low chance for a success...

Mustrum Ridcully
 

A Half Dragon monk took this feat and seriously owned his opponents with it.

He got improved trip for free at 6th level so he met all the prerequisites automatically.

He had +8 strength from his heritage and +6 from a belt so just about nothing beat him in contests of strength.

And every hit did 11 damage minimum.

So every hit he made knocked the opponent down and gave his subsequent attacks +4 to hit a prone foe. Meaning he could flurry or use lightning fists and not worry about the penalty to attack on his weaker itinerant attacks.

It also made power attack much more useful as that +4 to hit could be directly applied to damage.

Most importantly, everytime he knocked a foe down, that was one more opponent who would not be getting his full attack sequence on his init which was critical to the melee monk's survival. The monk attacked 3-5 times, one of them sure to knock the opponent over, and the opponent stands and retreats or stands and delivers a single attack.

Incredibly useful.
 

Mistwell said:
Only the Knockdown feat specifically says improved trip cannot be used in combination with the knockdown trip.

Perhaps an errata says so, but if so, I don't have any such errata in my hands ATM; and in Sword and Fist, the Knockdown Feat says no such thing.

On top of which, as I have judged prone creatures (logically) cannot be tripped, there is no reason to disallow another atatck, via Improved Trip, should the first attack trigger knockdown AND the knockdown-granted trip be successful.

Also, your "interpretation" aside, prone DOES NOT = Loss of Dex Bonus. See chart on page 132, it's pretty specific as well.

And as I said, I consider the act of being tripped to be pretty efficient at putting someone "off balance" until they next act -- look at the chart yourself, look down ONE entry to "off balance" ... it denies DEX bonus to AC.

You know, if I throw my PH out, I too can come up with some pretty amazing combinations!

You know, if I throw basic civility out the window, I to could be as needlessly insulting as you! :rolleyes:
 
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The errata does indeed say so as does the FAQ because the question was asked so often. It is not perhaps.

The reason that was given for improved trip's extra attack being disallowed is that improved trip allows a followup attack after a successful trip, knockdown is more like decking someone with a powerful blow and there is not the opportunity for the followup unless you have further attacks. That may makes sense to you, or it may seem thin, but that's the way the rules currently stand.

Unfortunately prone is a condition listed in the DMG and it does not include losing your dex bonus. You can still roll aside or manipulate your body in such a way as to dodge attacks. This is important because adding expert tactician attacks or sneak attacks to trip (which already does not provide an AofO even before feats) would upset some.

And snarkiness aside, your tag is Pax right? Peace? Let it slide. :)
 

I like this feat. It is not uber-powerful but it has some nice tactical applications.

Pax, even though you are mistaken about losing Dex when prone, Expert Tact is still an excellent choice for that Fighter; with such a large threatened area is would be quite easy to capitalize on enemys that get stunned or blinded (stunning fist, Sound Burst, Holy Smite, etc.). Instantly knocking them on their butts so your friends can finish them off more easily is a good move.

Personally I would pick up Hold the Line before Expert Tact. With such a huge tactical footprint, enemies will be tempted to charge you to take you out of the picture. HtL will cause conniption fits for anyone without Spring Attack. Remember to beg the Wizard to cast Protection from Arrows on you.
 

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