Please rate Subdual Substitution

[smetzger]

Subdual Substitution [Metamagic]

REQ: Any other metamagic feat, 5 ranks in Knowledge (arcana)

Choose one type of energy: acid, cold, electricity, fire, or sonic. You can modify a spell with the chosen designator to inflict subdual damage instead of energy damage. The subdual spell works normally in all respects except the type of damage dealt. For example a subdual fireball spell works in the usual way but the subdual fireball deals subdual damage instead of fire damage. A subdual spell uses a spell slot of the spell’s normal level, modified by any other metamagic feats. Tome and Blood, pg 42.

 

[Vanye]

I see it as average; it doesn't cost any penalty to the spell to use it (no additional levels), but in a combat situation, most of thetime you're looking to completely defeat your opponents, not take prisoners. Still, for those times you need prisoners, it's invaluable.

Plus, it's less fatal (usually ) to your comrades to catch them in the area of the spell...

 

[Destil]

If it ignores energy resistance and imunity (as I beleive it's been ruled to) than it's bascily broken. No one should complain about sonic substution when you can just subdual substute a fireball and nothing can stop it. Not endure elements, not energy imnuity, nothing. Since being knocked out is basicly a death sentence...

If it dosn't ignore that, than it's fine.

 

[Spatzimaus]

The biggest problem I see is, each class has its own reason why the Feat isn't great.

On the bright side, Subdual damage isn't elemental, so if you want to hit a fire-immune creature but don't want to muck around with figuring out its resistances, this is a nice option. Subdual damage might as well be lethal damage in most cases, because once all the enemies are unconscious it's just mopping up.

On the down side, it only affects spells of ONE element. If it worked for any elemental spell it'd be a great feat.

So, for a Sorcerer, this would be useful, except that thanks to the limited spells known you won't really have many choices here. If you pick anything but [Fire], it's not likely you'll know more than 1 or 2 substitutable spells. Chances are, you'll only be able to make Stunballs or Stunbolts, not both. Yes, there are more spells in splatbooks, but you're still at a disadvantage since Sorcerers want to spread their elements around.

For a Wizard, you don't metamagic on the fly, and there are enough creatures out there immune to subdual that it's not worth memorizing if you don't absolutely need it. In that case, you're better off researching a dedicated subdual-damage or stun spell.

Psions already have the Concussion spells. Clerics and Druids won't have Knowledge(Arcana). So, it's only a Sor/Wiz thing (no shock since it was from T&B)

 

[shilsen]

Clerics and Druids won't have Knowledge(Arcana). So, it's only a Sor/Wiz thing (no shock since it was from T&B)

Clerics do have Knowledge (Arcana) as a class skill.

 

[the Jester]

Average and extremely well balanced.

 

[Darklone]

Thanks to this feat, wizards finally have no worries anymore to throw fireballs in the middle of a crowded street...

 

[Li Shenron]

I must confess I don't like the concept of this feat in the first place: I liked the idea that elemental damage can never be subdual, so I don't like a feat that changes ONLY elemental damage to subdual.

Plus, I really don't think it's so "powerful" that it must be restricted to a single energy type. IMHO, it would not have been an overpowered feat even if it applied to any kind of hp-damaging spell.

 

[Shard O'Glase]

I guess its ok power wise, but I'd rpefer it effecting every daamging spell but not bypassing resistances. I give it a 5 as is, loosing mucho points because of style, and would give it a 8 if it was the "better" version.

 

[Deset Gled]

Would it be possible to combine this feat with Energy Substitution, thus allowing you to turn any energy based spell into subdual? From a logical standpoint, I think it works (and still at +0 lvl). The one problem I see is the that Subdual Substitution states that it works on spells with "a spell with the chosen designator" If Energy Substitution only changes the type of energy used, and not the designator, then I would have to say that the two cannot be used in together.

Does anybody have to text on Energy Substitution in front of them to check this out?