Please rate Subdual Substitution

[smetzger]

4.14 after 49 votes

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8. Large and in Charge

7. Expert Tactician, Divine Might, Chain Spell(7.15,52,45425), Energy Substitution(7.78,101,46982)

6. Superior Expertise, Improved Sunder, Knock-Down, Shield Expert, Divine Shield, Improved Shield Bash(6.38,50,40174), Shield Charge(6.78,49,43169), Sculpt Spell(6.81,52,47645)

5. Close Quarters Fighting, Hold The Line, Pain Touch, Augment Summoning(5.42,50,44968), Energy Admixture(5.91,57,46677), Eschew Materials(5.16,83,47143)

4. Blindsight 5-foot radius, Fists of Iron, Death Blow, Lightning Fists, Mantis Leap, Monkey Grip, Power Lunge, Rapid Reload, Sharp Shooting, Zen Archery, Empower Turning(4.18,56,38151), Divine Vigor(4.61,57,37849)

3. Feign Weakness, Extra Stunning Attacks, Dual Strike, Circle Kick(3.09,56,11716), Eyes in the Back of Your Head, Off-Hand Parry, Pin Shield, Prone Attack, Remain Conscious, Divine Cleansing, Divine Vengeance, Heighten Turning(3.95,41,39213), Quicken Turning(3.47,36,41330), Arcane Preparation(3.43,56,44560), Extra Slot(3.37,70,47474), Split Ray(3.60,48,48880)

2. Eagle Claw Attack, Improved Overrun, Dirty Fighting, Snatch Arrows, Arcane Defense(2.34,53,44015), Cooperative Spell(2.10,51,46164), Delay Spell(2.57,69,46475), Spell Specialization(2.67,61,48503)

1. Divine Resisitance

 

[Greybar]

I like it. It is certainly dependant on your group's style of play. If you're primarily doing wilderness or dungeon combat stuff, it may not be a big benefit.

As for using other spells for the binding purpose - none of those have the usefulness of a 6d6 subdual fireball. That "stunball" affects a large area for a third-level slot. There's no comparison to web or hold X for effectively. Note also that unlike the "save or be incapacitated" spells, as long as they took any damage from the stunball you have a good chance of taking them alive. As long as they have *some* subdual damage hanging around, your later swordblow (or follow-up real fireball) has a better chance of leaving them in the unconsious range, certainly much better than the 0 to -10 danger range.

The example of firing into a crowd mentioned earlier is a great example for any adventure in an urban area. It also nicely helps with the villain hiding behind/among the innocent.

John

 

[Gaiden]

Simply put, if you want to incapacitate a foe, there are other, better ways. This could then only be useful for a sorcerer with a limited number of spells. But then, extra spell would be better to get the actual spell that incapacitates them without killing them.

This feat IMO is completely worthless - not to mention all the creatures that are immune to subdual damage.

(I was not aware that subdualizing a spell made it bypass energy resistance and don't have it work that way IMC).

 

[niteshade6]

I think the key thing alot of people forget is that this feat can be great even if you don't want to keep your enemy alive, because you can just kill them after they are knocked out. A key advantage is that your spell will effect alot of things that otherwise would be immune to your spells. So it's certainly not right to say it's useless because there are better spells for knocking people out, or because you never know want to do that.

 

[Marshall]

How does an empowered, extended bull's strength work, then? Do you get 1.25*(1d4+1) for the first hour / level and only 1d4+1 for the rest of the duration?

The answer is that empower and maximize are the exceptions: it's explicitly stated that they do not 'stack'. It's not a general meta-magic rule.

Hah! I'm not the only one who noticed the logical contradiction in that ruling

PS Explain an Enlarged Twinned Spell, I dare ya!

 

[Shard O'Glase]

yeah I thougt you were in the minority of people who didn't like that ruling and said it was stupid. And well I obviosuly agree, this ruleing sucks. I hope it doesn't make its way into 3.5. And besides who cares about an empowered maximized spell. Oh wow 90 points of damage on that 8th level spell with 2 feats of goodness attached to it.