Podcast #225: What We Would Change in Dragonlance

AnotherGuy · Nov 7, 2022

whimsychris123 said:
The challenge with gully dwarves and kender is the idea of race having innate disabilities, whether it’s from a magical curse or not. I like their solution that the kleptomania or gully’s ignorance are more of a cultural thing than a product of race.

Strange that in a world full of magic, the story of magic corrupting a species is disallowed.
How sad and poor for storytelling.

I cannot wait for the upgrade to VtM, when the decision is made that an entire bloodline like the Nosferatu cannot be cursed to be hideous.

Morrus · Nov 7, 2022

It's valid to have a differing viewpoint on issues of ableism, but those of you who have decided that the correct approach is to openly mock or deride those who suggest that such issues be given some thought had better knock it off, before they're disinvited. If your response to this topic is vitriol or sarcasm, I highly recommend not posting.

Velderan · Nov 7, 2022

whimsychris123 said:
The challenge with gully dwarves and kender is the idea of race having innate disabilities, whether it’s from a magical curse or not. I like their solution that the kleptomania or gully’s ignorance are more of a cultural thing than a product of race.

Personally, the issue I have with gully dwarves is some of the game books have stated they're the result of gnome and dwarf inter-breeding and such inter-breeding was banned after seeing the result. There's just no way to justify that as being an ok things to put in a game book, they could have stuck with them just being another offshoot of the Graygem alterations and they ended up poor and living in the leftover spaces just due to bad luck or whatever. Why couldn't they just be something closer to kobolds, which have their own unique traits and still tend to live in less desirable places?

whimsychris123 · Nov 7, 2022

Pentallion said:
You "think"? You don't know? Here, let's take a look. Laurana. Not buxom, not scantily clad.

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/c6/8c/e6/c68ce6c3f3d11716b585f7cdae9eb01d.jpg

Goldmoon, tastefully drawn.

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/8e/99/28/8e9928682925946e88e76eed4a05dc1d.jpg

Just duckduckgo Dragonlance hit images and be disabused of that notion.

Who are the "they" you speak of whose solution was it being cultural, not race?
It wasn't racial. It was a curse laid on dwarves by the graygem. It was magic.
Did WOTC say somewhere they were changing this? Very odd but ultimately irrelevant.

Yes, I "think," I don't know. Just like you don't know the inner thoughts of people or their motivations. Why the tone?

Attached is another example, from the cover of the first (and most popular ) module, of the only female member of the beginning group. Everyone else is wearing pants, and she must be wearing a push-up bra. This "spiritual leader" is obviously sexualized in this picture. I agree with you that the actual portrayals of the characters in the stories themselves are fine, but the art was often sexualizing the women.

She also wears Native American garb but clearly doesn't look Native American. This may be another reason why some people take issue.

The "they" I speak of are the commentators in the podcast, the current topic of conversation. And like I said, it doesn't matter if the race is the way it is because of magic. You still have races of people with intellectual disabilities or thieving behavior, which smacks of real-world racist viewpoints. It doesn't matter if they carry the mark of Cain or whatever equivalent curse (in this case, chaos orbs) has been placed on them. That's why I like the commentator's solution that these groups are the way they are not because of race, but because of culture. But I agree with you that the actual portrayal of these characters is less ableist than the commentators suggest.

Velderan · Nov 7, 2022

Pentallion said:
You "think"? You don't know? Here, let's take a look. Laurana. Not buxom, not scantily clad.

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/c6/8c/e6/c68ce6c3f3d11716b585f7cdae9eb01d.jpg

Goldmoon, tastefully drawn.

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/8e/99/28/8e9928682925946e88e76eed4a05dc1d.jpg

Just duckduckgo Dragonlance hit images and be disabused of that notion.

Who are the "they" you speak of whose solution was it being cultural, not race?
It wasn't racial. It was a curse laid on dwarves by the graygem. It was magic.
Did WOTC say somewhere they were changing this? Very odd but ultimately irrelevant.

You're conveniently leaving out the first painting of Goldmoon on the cover of DL1 Dragons of Despair. Bare legs aren't exactly how I'd imagine a priestess going into battle against a dragon. Also the Goldmoon painting you refer to as tastefully drawn still has wearing a pretty low cut top. Want to know what probably depicts a woman better? Goldmoon as depicted on the cover of New Tales:

Or how she's shown in this painting:

Or the revised cover of Dragons of Autumn Twilight:

b5824600-c0ee-47aa-b7f4-e49e4e952ef9.ecd66cd0946655dc381e00d41d698e8a.jpeg

As for Laurana, I'm guessing you're aware of this one as well:

There were plenty of early DL paintings that many people feel objectify women, which as you've noted was a series that featured strong women in key roles. I can't think of a painting that shows Kitiara sexualized in anyway for example so art depicting them like that wasn't needed at all.

Velderan · Nov 7, 2022

whimsychris123 said:
She also wears Native American garb but clearly doesn't look Native American. This may be another reason why some people take issue.

That's a huge issue for some people too and it's a pretty easy one to change without impacting the character much. Maybe the name Goldmoon doesn't make sense if she's dark haired like the rest of her people are described, but you can still leave pretty much everything else about her story intact.

whimsychris123 · Nov 7, 2022

Velderan said:
I can't think of a painting that shows Kitiara sexualized in anyway for example so art depicting them like that wasn't needed at all.

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/58/a5/b5/58a5b5dcc63c93838a2ca73d50a1050e.jpg

Unfortunately, even Kitiara doesn't get off the hook.

Velderan · Nov 7, 2022

whimsychris123 said:
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/58/a5/b5/58a5b5dcc63c93838a2ca73d50a1050e.jpg

Unfortunately, even Kitiara doesn't get off the hook.

Completely forgot about that one.

whimsychris123 · Nov 7, 2022

Ixal said:
Sounds like some people have already made up their mind that DL must be sexist and "out of date" because its old and everything old is problematic.

Or they have valid reasons that you are not addressing with this dismissive post.

whimsychris123 · Nov 7, 2022

Velderan said:
That's a huge issue for some people too and it's a pretty easy one to change without impacting the character much. Maybe the name Goldmoon doesn't make sense if she's dark haired like the rest of her people are described, but you can still leave pretty much everything else about her story intact.

There’s a lot of reasons that a woman might be called Goldmoon besides her hair color. I know that’s the reason stated in the book, but it need not be so. I think you could leave the essential parts of the characters intact while giving them more of an authentic indigenous portrayal.

Podcast #225: What We Would Change in Dragonlance

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