Level Up (A5E) Point Buy Races?

Zardnaar

Legend
Conceptually this has been done back in 2E Skills and Powers. Each race gets a basic template. Eg Dwarves get Darkvision.

After that you pick some abilities. Want an intelligent boost for a Dwarf wizard, spend the points. Opportunity cost no weapons training perhaps (idk on point cost).

Reasonably simple at least in concept.
 

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Point buy for races is pretty much inevitably dreadful, looking at the many games which have attempted it. Skills and Powers certainly had a pretty lame implentation.

It's fiddly, unsatisfying, and potentially strongly encourages the worst, least-interesting kinds of min-maxing. On top of that, it's extremely vulnerable to bad "pricing" decisions from the designers. I mean, that already happens a bit - for example low natural ACs and weak natural weapons, together with largely-pointless combat abilities (due to the action economy causing huge opportunity costs) are wildly overvalued by WotC, balance-wise, but it's not formal. Once you formalize it, it becomes even worse, as races can quickly become drastically over/under-valued.

Flat values are bad too, because a lot of racial abilities are amazing for a certain class or subclass, but totally worthless for another. Weapon proficiencies, for example. Even things like Darkvision are pointless if your subclass grants the same or better (as a number of subclasses do). Whereas other ones can be amazing but only for certain classes - the Wood Elf hide-in-plain-sight thing is amazing for a Rogue due to the action economy and the Rogue bonus action feature (I forget the name), but it's going to be nearly completely useless to a lot of classes.
 

R_J_K75

Legend
Point buy for races is pretty much inevitably dreadful, looking at the many games which have attempted it. Skills and Powers certainly had a pretty lame implentation.

It's fiddly, unsatisfying, and potentially strongly encourages the worst, least-interesting kinds of min-maxing. On top of that, it's extremely vulnerable to bad "pricing" decisions from the designers. I mean, that already happens a bit - for example low natural ACs and weak natural weapons, together with largely-pointless combat abilities (due to the action economy causing huge opportunity costs) are wildly overvalued by WotC, balance-wise, but it's not formal. Once you formalize it, it becomes even worse, as races can quickly become drastically over/under-valued.

Flat values are bad too, because a lot of racial abilities are amazing for a certain class or subclass, but totally worthless for another. Weapon proficiencies, for example. Even things like Darkvision are pointless if your subclass grants the same or better (as a number of subclasses do). Whereas other ones can be amazing but only for certain classes - the Wood Elf hide-in-plain-sight thing is amazing for a Rogue due to the action economy and the Rogue bonus action feature (I forget the name), but it's going to be nearly completely useless to a lot of classes.

One point to take into consideration here is that this is a new game being designed by a different group of designers and therefore has the opportunity to change the flaws you have outlined.
 

R_J_K75

Legend
Conceptually this has been done back in 2E Skills and Powers. Each race gets a basic template. Eg Dwarves get Darkvision.

After that you pick some abilities. Want an intelligent boost for a Dwarf wizard, spend the points. Opportunity cost no weapons training perhaps (idk on point cost).

Reasonably simple at least in concept.

I totally support this as it definitely has the potential to ensure that each individual of a certain race/ancestry is unique. As a real world example I have 4 friends coming over later tonight, besides all being Caucasian males between the ages of 30-50 and being from the same geographic location, our family backgrounds and upbringings, talents, education and professions are all very different. Even if its not necessarily a point buy system and some other form of customization I'd prefer that over a standard system. I dont even care if they arent 100% balanced with each other as long as the gap between some is minimal.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Flat values are bad too, because a lot of racial abilities are amazing for a certain class or subclass, but totally worthless for another. Weapon proficiencies, for example. Even things like Darkvision are pointless if your subclass grants the same or better (as a number of subclasses do). Whereas other ones can be amazing but only for certain classes - the Wood Elf hide-in-plain-sight thing is amazing for a Rogue due to the action economy and the Rogue bonus action feature (I forget the name), but it's going to be nearly completely useless to a lot of classes.
Racial abilities should not be considered in combination with classes. Their racial abilities. That racial darkvision you mention? It has a point. Your character had it and used it from birth up until the point where he acquired redundant darkvision from the subclass. A redundant ability isn't a big deal, and if it is, don't choose the subclass that is at fault. I also disagree that the wood elf ability to hide in light obscurement(not in plain sight) is useless for non-rogues. Often over the decades I have had a PC who would have killed to have that ability. Bounded accuracy makes it useful for any class. It's okay for racial abilities to not match your class and/or subclass.
 


One point to take into consideration here is that this is a new game being designed by a different group of designers and therefore has the opportunity to change the flaws you have outlined.

I noted that:

Point buy for races is pretty much inevitably dreadful, looking at the many games which have attempted it.

This is not something that someone tried once and screwed up. This is something countless people, in countless gains, have tried, and not done well with.

Now, if you can explain specifically how they'd deal with the problems it causes, sure, that'd be interesting. And yeah there's always a chance they'll just hit upon some cool system, but I am pretty skeptical.

Racial abilities should not be considered in combination with classes. Their racial abilities. That racial darkvision you mention? It has a point. Your character had it and used it from birth up until the point where he acquired redundant darkvision from the subclass. A redundant ability isn't a big deal, and if it is, don't choose the subclass that is at fault. I also disagree that the wood elf ability to hide in light obscurement(not in plain sight) is useless for non-rogues. Often over the decades I have had a PC who would have killed to have that ability. Bounded accuracy makes it useful for any class. It's okay for racial abilities to not match your class and/or subclass.

This isn't an actual argument you're presenting, rather an unsupported opinion (indeed, some of it is outright illogical - the "had since birth" thing in the context of a points-based balance discussion is beyond irrelevant). I presented an actual argument - flat values are bad, because the actual utility of abilities varies wildly to different characters.

I'm not saying they need to be tied to classes, because that would be impractical, but my point is, once you start putting flat values on racial abilities, and letting people buy and sell them from their "version" of a race, you inevitably favour certain subclasses and certain races in a pretty unreasonable way that isn't currently a problem. This isn't an argument in favour of non-fixed values. This is an argument against points-based races.

The only argument I can see in favour is that if they were done well, you might make it so that some wildly underpowered races (Genasi, for example) got a lot more discretionary points to spend than the more stacked ones (most Elves and Dwarves, for example), assuming there was a fixed "race and culture" budget. But my experience, as I've said, is that these things are not typically done well. Usually some stuff will be unreasonably valued, either high or low, which can be particularly bad when races combine fixed and variable elements.

Re: Wood Elf ability, it would have functioned so differently in different editions that it's not reasonable to compare it. It's not particularly useful for other classes, because of 5E's action economy combined with the slightly tricky conditions for it to work. I say that having played Wood Elves, note.
 




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