Point Buy vs. Die Rolling Ability Scores

[Conaill]

"I've always allowed 70-point buy for my players. I haven't had a problem with it yet."

Well, as long as you understand that you have increased the ECL of the party by one or two so that the challenges will be more in line...

More like ECL +2 to +4 actually. I played around with the online ECL calculators one day to see what ECL +1 is equivalent to in terms of point-buy, and came up with 10-20 points.

25 points ~ +0 ECL
40 points ~ +1 ECL
55 points ~ +2 ECL
70 points ~ +3 ECL

If you don't adjust their effective level, there's a couple of things that might happen:

1) The PC's just waltz through every encounter, especially at low levels. This will make them level up much faster than designed (and how often have we heard people complain that 3e levels up too fast at low levels?...)

2) "My players need the stat boost because of what I throw at them" Ah, so acknowledge you crank up the CR level of their encounters? (Perhaps only by making optimal use of environment, surprise, and by playing the opposition much more intelligently than most DMs would... that still makes for a higher CR encounter!) Then... if you crank up the PCs and you crank up the encounters, why not just use the standard mechanics to deal with that? I.e. let them start at level 4, with a +3 ECL race, or with 70 point buy, and use the standard CR rules to design encounters for that power level!

 

[RigaMortus]

I prefer point-buy myself.

The problem I see with rolling is the extremes. It is possible to have characters with REALLY crappy scores or REALLY high scores. Now nobody wants to play a character with really crappy scores, so what do you do? Allow them to reroll of course. So if you are going to allow someone to reroll until they get the scores they want, why not cut out the middle man (the rolling), save some time, and let them pick their scores anyway? All point-buy is is a pick method with rules.

When I make a character through rolling, I tend to see what I roll first and make my character based off that. I don't think, "I want to be a Paladin" and then roll until I get Paladin-ish stats. I roll, and whatever comes up I figure out which class would best suit these scores. If I only get one good roll, I'll pick something that depends on one good roll (most likely a caster). If I get a few good rolls, I'd pick something like a Paladin or Monk. If I got a few decent scores, I'd go the Rogue or Fighter-type route.

"It's all in the dice."

 

[Crothian]

That's odd. Sunday we made up new characters using dice to roll up attributes and I decided on a monk before I rolled a single die. I don't think that any class needs better scores then any other, so it didn't matter what I rolled.

But I think people put too much emphasis on attributes and their importance. I'm much more concerned about balance of magical items and class abilities then attributes personally.

 

[frisbeet]

Another unconventional method (mentioned by me on this board before):

For a 1-in-216 character, assign an 18 to a single attribute of your choice. Roll 3d6 for the other 5 attributes. I paid too much money for my stuff to play an average character--I already have that in spades in reality.

 

[DiFier]

If I remember correctly, rerolling ones actually has quite a big impact on the scores. More so than "best of 2 sets of stats" for example. Plus I think the latter probably feels more satisfying to the player anyway.

Is that reroll all one's or reroll when you have more than 1 one. if you roll 2, 2, 2, 1 normally you'd get 6 (drop the 1) but if you reroll all threes you could get 10. 6,2,2 (drop 2) if you take the 6 but would reroll 1 one on a 2, 2, 1, 1 then I think it would be better.

 

[diaglo]

by the pure math method 4d6 drop the lowest gives an avg score of 12.28 rounded.

so 12.28 - 8 = 4.28

4.28 * 6 stats = 25.68

the default scores = 25 point buy.

so by the math the 4d6 drop the lowest is slightly better.

 

[Greybar]

Diaglo,

I think your math estimatation was too simplistic, since it does not account for the range of 4d6 possibilities. At the upper end, these possibilities are much more expensive (per pt of attribute) than the average. That then brings you to about 28, as I proposed in my opening post.

John

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

An accurate assessment of 4d6 on a point buy scale also needs to account for "hopeless" characters. Throwing out hopeless characters (as per the PH) skews the point buy higher than average rolls would indicate.

Myself, I prefer point buy. It lets me play the character I want to play (none of the "I wanted to play a cleric but I can either be an amazing thief or a pathetic cleric"). It evens out the power of the PCs. (I've played in games where one person rolled nearly perfectly and another rolled very poorly--it's not very satisfying to be playing a hobbit when everyone else is playing Gandalf or Aragorn and they're in the same party (Merry and Pippin felt this way if you recall from LotR). I know some people like the idea of one player getting to be the hero and someone else playing the flunkie or the loser but I had more than enough of that garbage in Junior High. It wasn't fun then and it isn't fun now). I haven't really seen min-maxing to be more of a problem with point buy than rolling. Either way, people will put their stats where they think they're advantageous--point buy, however, allows people to choose how min-maxed their character is going to be and adds a very definite cost to min-maxing. (Nor is the problem of newbies not knowing the system averted by rolling--when most of the players in my group made their first 3e characters by rolling they put scores in places they wouldn't do now. The same with point buy--it's just a question of how you get the scores).

Point buy also allows some interesting options that I want to try out next time I run a game. I'm thinking of something like allowing higher point buys at the cost of +1 or +2 ECL (for the young and inexperienced but very gifted type characters), allowing +ecl races at no ECL if they live with lower point buy, and possibly even allowing characters to start with extra levels of NPC classes at the cost of lower stats (thus simulating the experienced campaigner or warrior/shepherd archetype who is travelling with the young heroes; I haven't figured out whether I'd treat it as a negative ECL or whether I'd just let the player increase his stats to normal point buy levels as he gained experience that would normally cause him to level (simulating the warrior-turned barkeep regaining his lost muscle and constitution)). I like the idea of having a more or less balanced party of unbalanced individuals--something I think point buy can do but rolling can't.

Diaglo,

I think your math estimatation was too simplistic, since it does not account for the range of 4d6 possibilities. At the upper end, these possibilities are much more expensive (per pt of attribute) than the average. That then brings you to about 28, as I proposed in my opening post.

John

 

[diaglo]

i could show you the 1296 possibilities if you want

believe me. i've taken a stat class or five.

edit: but you are right i didn't account for the higher value of rolling an 18 using point buy alone.

 

[master arminas]

In the campaigns that I run, I give the players an option.

(1) Roll 4d6, drop the lowest, reroll 1s. Roll 7 times and assign the six scores you want where you want.

(2) Divide 81 points among the six ability scores. I absolutely hate the higher scores are more expensive school of though, as most of the point buy systems seem to have, so I allow people to assigned their ability scores on a point for point basis. However, no character can have more than one ability score below 10, unless they receive special permission from me beforehand, and even then I will usually not allow any score below 8.

Now, in my campaign, I consider my players to be HEROES, men and women of valor and integrity, who accomplish actions which are patently unattainable by most people. If the character takes the 81 points (option 2), and divides them equally, then a beginning 1st level character could have 3 14's and 3 13's, above average, but not tremendously so.

Ability score increases due to level and race are then added/subtracted atop the rolled/bought abilities. It works well for us, providing characters that have the potential to become truely heroic, instead of just your average peasant who strolls in from the farm. Get real, get a life, and remember it's just a game. The point is to enjoy it, and if you have a decent character, then the enjoyment is enriched.

Just my two coppers.

The Grand Master Arminas