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D&D 5E Point Buy vs Rolling for Stats

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Ah, but in array-land everyone's gimped equally. :)

Er...while I appreciate the idea, I think you're being a bit generous to those villagers. :)

By my rough math if the 300 villagers are rolled using 3d6 (which by tradition if nothing else is the norm for commoners) you'll have 1 or maybe 2 natural 18s and about the same number of 3s. I think (I'm no mathmologist) you'll have about 6 natural 17s and a roughly equal number of 4s. The average of all their cumulative stats will (or should) be pretty much bang on 10.5.

Now if you're rolling these villagers' stats using PC rules (4d6k3, or 5d6k3, or whatever) then you're beyond the scope of my arithmetic prowess to figure out how many 18s or 3s you'd have.

Lanefan

5e has no 3d6 rule that I am aware of. Everyone uses 4d6 drop the lowest. That's why I specified 5e and didn't go further than that. In 1e and 2e, sure. If you house rule it to 3d6, then yes those numbers drop considerably. They will average 11.5, though. Humans get +1 to all stats.
 

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Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
And there, boys and girls is exactly my point. :D Has nothing to do with "realism" or anything like that and everything to do with beating the odds.

So you lose the argument horribly and shift the argument way from what D&D gives you, which was what you were arguing, and into beating the odds. Classy. It's still about realism, though. The random nature of those stats is still more realistic than picking them, so you lose again.
 

TwoSix

Dirty, realism-hating munchkin powergamer
Ah, but in array-land everyone's gimped equally. :)

Er...while I appreciate the idea, I think you're being a bit generous to those villagers. :)

By my rough math if the 300 villagers are rolled using 3d6 (which by tradition if nothing else is the norm for commoners) you'll have 1 or maybe 2 natural 18s and about the same number of 3s. I think (I'm no mathmologist) you'll have about 6 natural 17s and a roughly equal number of 4s. The average of all their cumulative stats will (or should) be pretty much bang on 10.5.

Now if you're rolling these villagers' stats using PC rules (4d6k3, or 5d6k3, or whatever) then you're beyond the scope of my arithmetic prowess to figure out how many 18s or 3s you'd have.

Lanefan
Even with 3d6, it's a little more than that. Odds of an 18 on 3d6 are 1 in 216. Since each commoner has 6 stats, the odds of having at least one 18 are 1-((215/216)^6), or 2.75%. That means about one villager out of 36 will have a natural 19 (considering humans get +1 to each stat).

Using 4d6k3 puts the chances of an 18 up to 21 in 1296, or 1.62%. Chances of getting at least one 18 (19 with human adjustment), are 9.34%, or right around 1 out of 11 people.

In a human village of 300, there will be 28, count them 28 people running around with a 19 starting stat, and 90 people with 18s. More than a third will have an 18 or 19, and those are the COMMONERS. Odds are that at least one will have 2 18+ stats.
Didn't run the numbers for 17 (human 18), but they look right to me. Your other numbers are dead-on.
 
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Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Even with 3d6, it's a little more than that. Odds of an 18 on 3d6 are 1 in 216. Since each commoner has 6 stats, the odds of having at least one 18 are 1-((215/216)^6), or 2.75%. That means about one villager out of 36 will have a natural 19 (considering humans get +1 to each stat).

Using 4d6k3 puts the chances of an 18 up to 21 in 1296, or 1.62%. Chances of getting at least one 18 (19 with human adjustment), are 9.34%, or right around 1 out of 11 people.


Didn't run the numbers for 17 (human 18), but they look right to me. Your other numbers are dead-on.

Anydice.com shows an 18 on 4d6-L as 9.34% and 17 at 30.07%. For one person to have two 18s they show it as .38% and 4.03% for a 17. There would be roughly 12 human commoners with multiple 18's and 1 with two 19's in a small village of 300.
 

Ilbranteloth

Explorer
So, you're idea of "realism" is to choose a chargen method that will nearly always result in characters that are better than the standard array. Is that correct?

See, that's the *ahem* elephant in the room. Die roll methods will almost always result in higher value characters than standard array.

This is a fallacy and factually incorrect. It all depends on the die rolling method, but the standard array was selected because it is a close approximation of the average of 4d6k3.

Rolling 3d6 for stats results in only a 9.56% chance that you will roll higher than the standard array of 72 points. The average is 63 points, considerably below the standard array. Also note that on any given die roll using 3d6, the probabilities don't change. No matter how many times you roll you have an almost 50% chance of rolling a 9, 10, 11, or 12, and a nearly 68% chance of it being an 8,9,10,11, or 12. The chance of rolling either a 3 or an 18 is less than 1/2% (.463%).

What is true is that 4d6k3 will produce scores on average that are slightly higher than the standard array. See here: http://anydice.com/articles/4d6-drop-lowest/

This appears to be simply because WotC rounded down instead of up. The actual average is 73.46 points, instead of the 72 points granted by the standard array. This slight variation may have been intentional as a benefit to rolling because that also happens to be the mean, so half of the characters rolled will be less than this 73 points.

So the best you can claim with 4d6k3 is that a half of the characters generated will result in characters with 1 or more points higher than the standard array, which is hardly "almost always" and doesn't account for the fact that almost half will be less. Of those that are higher, most will be only a point or two higher. If using 3d6, then almost 90% of rolled characters will be the standard array or less. Most considerably less.

And this is "realism"?

The standard array doesn't create a bell curve. Every single character has the same number of points. There is no curve. (Technically humans are 1 point less, so there are really two points - 75 for non-human, 74 for humans, still no bell curve, it's linear).

The bell curve that rolling creates (although the 4d6k3 isn't technically a bell curve, since it's asymmetrical) means that more people will have 65 (3d6 + modifiers) or 76 (4d6k3 + modifiers) as the most common point score. The least common would be 21 (all 3's + modifiers), or 111 (all 18s + modifiers), but those are very, very rare. The closer you get to the middle (65 or 76 depending on method) the more common the totals are.

But it's this bell curve that creates a "realistic" distribution across characters that is lacking in standard array and point buy systems. Not every character or NPC generated has the same point value for stats. Most are bunched in the middle (average), with a small number of very good and very bad characters.

For proof, I'd ask you to canvas your groups. Yup, there will be that one guy who has a lower than standard array, but, that's offset by the other nineteen characters that are all higher.

Canvassing your groups tells you nothing about the die rolling method. It will tell you about the application of the method. And this is colored by the fact that many groups probably don't require you to take the first set of stats that you roll. In which case players are allowed to cherry pick the better sets. That will skew the value considerably. But it's also important to actually check the total value (72 points) rather than whether any numbers or even several, are above 15.

We do that, simply because I'm not concerned about whether the characters have higher scores in terms of game balance etc. The stats that aren't selected can be used for NPCs, followers, or other characters. One of the reasons why I like the multiple character approach, is that players don't seem to mind some substandard characters if they aren't their only character. Although ironically, it's often (usually?) the substandard character that they enjoy playing the most.

Look, I get that people like random generation. Fair enough. But, at least be upfront about it. People are randomly generating their characters so they can get higher powered characters.

If that's your experience, then they aren't following the rules. If their purpose is to make higher powered characters and they are choosing to roll to do so, then they must also accept lower powered characters.

I'd recommend the following:

For players who choose to roll, they must take the first set of stats they roll (arrange as desired).
The floor for rolling is 63 points (the average of 3d6). If the total does not equal 63, then you may increase stats to reach a total of 63.
No stat can be raised above 15.
No second stat can be raised above 15 if any other stat is below 8.

If you'd like a narrower distribution, then set the floor closer to 72.

This way, folks that roll have a chance of getting higher ability scores (one of the reasons why people like rolling). Setting the floor means they will only get one roll. As soon as you allow a second roll, their stats will trend higher.

Of course, you're going to run into players who decide that if their character is less than everybody else's 72, it's not good enough. Either they'll complain, perhaps attempt to kill off the character, whatever. To me it's simple. If you can't abide by the rules, and play the character you've rolled randomly in good faith, then you can't roll randomly. You get the standard array.

However, in many of our experiences, that's not why people are rolling their characters. In fact, I can't say anybody here who is expressing their preference for rolling characters is doing so because it creates higher powered characters. So I agree, let's be upfront about it. Some people randomly generate their characters so they can get higher powered characters.
 

Oofta

Legend
Where in the current edition does it describe how to generate stats for NPCs? Because I don't see it anywhere but it wouldn't be the first time I missed something.

The only thing I could find is options on how to generate ability scores in character creation guidelines and then on page 173 it states that "Adventurers can have scores as high as 20". There are a few NPCs listed here and there which have a 20 ability.

So all we really know is that the minimum is probably 3 (although that's never really stated anywhere) and the high for mortal humanoids is 20.

All discussions of distribution of ability scores for NPCs seem to be based on rules that were written 4 decades ago or so. I don't see how it's any more relevant than trying to say that only elves can be multi-classed fighter mages and hobbits have to be thieves.
 

Ilbranteloth

Explorer
If I wanted random, but fair results I could just roll for which stat array I used and then (if I really wanted random) roll for which number went to which ability. Would that not satisfy the whole "I want random stats"?

Apologies to [MENTION=23751]Maxperson[/MENTION] who answered in the negative, but mathematically it would, provided you designed the array and the selection of the individual line of stats properly.

There are two aspects to this. The array could be the entire array produced by 3-18.
The array could be chosen by percentile dice (even 1,000 or 10,000 like Hackmaster) to achieve the same bell curve distribution as rolling 3d6.

If you wanted to reduce the variation, such as set a floor and/or a ceiling, then you'd select only the portion of the array you wanted, such as no ability less than 8, and none more than 15. So all 8s and all 15s would be in play. Provided you design the selection process to maintain the proper bell curve (not a shifted one, but so the probabilities remain intact), then this would satisfy the random stats goal.

The solution I posted at the end of post #215 solves the same problem if you want to set a floor, without the complexity of the arrays. If you wanted to set a ceiling too, then you could just declare any number rolled that's over 15 is a 15 and you can only use the excess to raise a score to 8. Seems simpler than designing an array.
 

Ilbranteloth

Explorer
Where in the current edition does it describe how to generate stats for NPCs? Because I don't see it anywhere but it wouldn't be the first time I missed something.

The only thing I could find is options on how to generate ability scores in character creation guidelines and then on page 173 it states that "Adventurers can have scores as high as 20". There are a few NPCs listed here and there which have a 20 ability.

So all we really know is that the minimum is probably 3 (although that's never really stated anywhere) and the high for mortal humanoids is 20.

All discussions of distribution of ability scores for NPCs seem to be based on rules that were written 4 decades ago or so. I don't see how it's any more relevant than trying to say that only elves can be multi-classed fighter mages and hobbits have to be thieves.

In general, the 5e version of NPCs are the ones on the back of the MM. However, the DMG under the section of NPC Statistics says that if you need them, one option is giving them a class and levels and specifically states, "You can create an NPC just as you would a player character, using the rules in the Player's Handbook.
 

Arial Black

Adventurer
We simply disagree. In the last game we used point buy, my wife's rolls sucked. Another gal's rolls were a statistical anomaly high. Neither was happy with the character they were forced to play because the numbers for my wife did not allow her to build the hero she envisioned and the other gal was uncomfortable being so much more powerful out of the box.

It's the difference between given two meals - half a bowl of runny cold gruel or a filet from a five star restaurant (or whatever else your heart desires).

Stats and game rules don't define a character, but they do support the vision.

Your posts have carried the assumption that there are exactly two stat generation methods: one which gives you absolute control (point-buy), and one which gives you no control at all (rolling). Of course, rolling and arranging does give some control, while point-buy does not give you total control of your stats, or control over the number of points, or the possibility of lower than 8 or higher than 15, so hardly 'absolute control'.

But the reality is that there are shades of grey between these extremes; it's not a coin, it's a spectrum.

Each extreme has its own advantages and disadvantages, and this is also true of the methods between. The difference is that those who are going for a method somewhere on the spectrum are doing so in order to try and get the best aspects of both extremes, while suffering the fewest weaknesses of either method.

For example, the (valid) complaint about the spread of results among PCs is one of the weaknesses of rolling, but you talk as if the only valid solution to this is point-buy (and a specific 27 points at that!), when there are many random methods which nevertheless ensure the exact same total for every PC. Would you walk away from that? You give the impression that you would walk away from every single game that is not exactly 27 point point-buy, even if another method would 'solve' your problems re: spread of results! That is what seems absurd to me. "You've solved all the complaints I had, but I'm walking out anyway!", seems to be your position.

Once again, I simply disagree. Obviously there are always going to be constraints and limitations, that's part of the game. But I don't see how someone can look at two sets of stats (multiple 18's nothing lower than a 14 vs high of 14, a 10 multiple stats below 10) and say that the effective character options are the same.

Yet if all the players had the same array, then would you walk away if that array worked out at 20 points? Or 40 points? Or 26 or 28? After all, every player has the same array.

All I can tell you is that my wife and I have discussed this. If the DM is dead set on roll 4d6 drop lowest no other option we would not join the game. Of course we both DM so it's not like we'd be out of a game, just that that that particular game is not for us. Life is too short and I have too many gaming opportunities to be forced to play a gimped character I don't want to play.

No different than if I had insisted that everyone play a dwarf for my campaign.

You're lucky enough to be in a game rich environment. Most of us are not so fortunate.

In my entire (nearly 40 years) of D&D, I NEVER used point-buy; it offended me on many levels. Of course, that offense is subjective and not something I can use to convince others, but I can advocate for some methods over others, and so can anyone else.

That changed when I got a chance to play in Pathfinder, 4E, and 5E organised play. I still hated point-buy, but unlike you in your game rich environment it was either point-buy or no game at all.

I chose to play. My misgivings were still there, but instead of taking my metaphorical bat and ball home I decided to exploit the point-buy system as much as I could, while still creating characters I liked. My first Pathfinder PC bought two 7s (the lowest possible) so that I could afford high scores in the stats I wanted. For my next PC, the array I bought was 7/7/7/8/18/18, and I would have reduced the 8 to a 7 if that extra 2 build points could've been used.

But I still liked my PCs, because I made them and I make PCs I like. If the points total had been reduced by 5 points my ability to make the PCs I like would be unchanged.

If, like you, I'd been lucky enough to be in a game rich environment I would not have chosen those point-buy games, but the lack of non-point buy didn't make me walk away.

But thanks for the implication that if I don't want to play your way I'm somehow psychologically damaged.

Perhaps a bit of hyperbole of my own. :D
 

Ilbranteloth

Explorer
I don't know about that...I mean, the difference between an 18 and 19 in game terms is almost zero. They have the same modifier. Also, even if we consider using the game dice to model the population (and I've been long been antagonistic to using the game rules as a world simulator), a 5e human would get a +1 to all stats, so 19s would not be unheard of even within a 3d6 population.

Since a 1st level 20 is impossible for humans (assuming standard 5e human, not VHuman) but not for other races, the 19-20 barrier might be a better tipping point for the barrier between "natural" and preternatural/supernatural.

Works for me. The point is that the barrier is definitely not 16.
 

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