Point buy

[JRRNeiklot]

Not fair? As long as each player uses non-loaded or otherwised altered dice, of course it's fair! They eac have the potential for 6 18s or 6 3s. Point buy is like genetically engineering your child. Let's see, I'll take Michael Jordan's legs and Einstein's brain, throw in Ted William's eyes while your at it...

 

[Pbartender]

+1 is not to +2 as +2 is to +3. And likewise throughout. IOW, it's a bell curve.

Yeah, well... Only if you're rolling dice... And only then if you are rolling multiple dice.



If you use 1d10+8 to generate your ability scores, or the "all ability scores added together must equal [INSERT NUMBER]" type of 'point buy', then it's no longer a bell curve.

And besides, the point costs have very little to do with the actual probabilities of rolling 3d6 or 4d6 drop the lowest... The formula for point buy is simply, "The point cost to increase an ability by one is equal to the ability's current bonus, with a minimum point cost of one point."

 

[Pbartender]

Not fair? As long as each player uses non-loaded or otherwised altered dice, of course it's fair! They eac have the potential for 6 18s or 6 3s. Point buy is like genetically engineering your child. Let's see, I'll take Michael Jordan's legs and Einstein's brain, throw in Ted William's eyes while your at it...

Interesting thought for a futuristic game...

"Natural" people are the ones who use 4d6 drop the lowest for stats.

If you use (a relatively high) point buy, you're "Genenged", and face potential ostracism, but are guaranteed the ability scores you want.

 

[Mark Chance]

And I have agreed every time: it doesn't seem fair.

But it is fair. Say everyone rolls 3d6, keeps them in the order rolled for their ability scores, and then applies racial modifiers. That's fair. Everyone is treated the equally, and everyone has an equal chance for success or failure. Point buy systems arise from an inability to distinguish between equal and the same. Point buy characters overwhelmingly tend to be homogenized and afflicted with one more dread dump stats.

 

[Pbartender]

Ha ha! I found that spreadsheet I was looking for...

The first page generates six sets (whole party's worth!) of abilities at a time using 4d6-lowest six times (they're generated in order, but feel free to arrange them as desired, if you so choose). It has the ability bonus and point buy cost for each ability as well as totals for bonuses and point cost for each set of abilities. Standard D&D point buy doesn't normally deal with ability scores lower than 8, so for the purposes of this program I assumed that the trend continues... 7 = -1, 6 = -3, 5 = -5, 4 = -8, and 3 = -11. To get the sheet to recalculate, you need to select a cell with the cursor and hit return.

The second page of the spread sheet has a point buy calculator using the standard D&D point buy method. Just hit the arrow buttons for each ability to increse or decrease the score. Ability bonuses and point costs are automatically calculated.

The Excel file is attached below.

 

[werk]

But it is fair. Say everyone rolls 3d6, keeps them in the order rolled for their ability scores, and then applies racial modifiers. That's fair. Everyone is treated the equally, and everyone has an equal chance for success or failure. Point buy systems arise from an inability to distinguish between equal and the same. Point buy characters overwhelmingly tend to be homogenized and afflicted with one more dread dump stats.

Equal chance of being screwed does not equal fair. You are using fair in the legal term, in that no one is being treated differently, so it is fair. I do not subscribe to that way of thinking.

The real problem here is that it is a random result that affects the character for it's entire duration. It's not a failed save, or a bad damage result, it is a penalty that the character is saddled with forever because he was unlucky. That's not fair.

Point buy, is truely fair, in that everyone has exactly the same amount of resources to allocate as they see fit. Yes, it does make homogenized characters, that's the idea, no one is grossly better or worse than another. Dump stats occur because DMs don't place emphasis equally on all stats, a problem I don't have IMC.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Actually, that does bring up an interesting side about point buy. Obviously, the higher the point buy the more paladins/monks/favored souls/etc you should see because the ability scores seem to lend toward voercoming MADD. Which is actually more of a sympton of our assumption of "good ability scores" and not a function of the classes. After all, if we assume a good score doesn't begin until 14, we're less likely to play a character suffering from MADD. But if we think of good as anything above 10 then suddenly MADD characters are much more feasible.

So perhaps as an add-on to this question is what constitutes a "good ability score" in your game? I would imagine that those of us who go for the 32 point-buy (or higher) system have a higher conception of a good ability score than those who are content playing under a 25 point-buy.

Interesting question. As I said, we usually play 25 point buy characters.


18: Powergamers Wet Dream Ability: I have no idea how I should get there, unless I find PrCs that would allow me to use this ability score for anyhting (saves, skill points, hit points)

17: Incredibible ability: Much like the 18, but slightly more "realistic"

16: Superior Ability: Very Nice, possibly for a very focused character (Wizards and maybe Fighters might fit this)

15: Excellent Ability: Probably the highest I choose for any given character.

14: Good Ability: Goes into any secondary ability scores or to multiple stats for MAD-characters.

13: Fine Ability. Goes usually into ability scores that either grant access to feats with that value (assuming I actually want that feat) - examples are dex and int - or that aids one of my primary character abiltities and doesn't lose out if I improve it later (so no to int in that case, but yes to Constitution, Dexterity or Strength)

12: Fine Ability (as 13): Put anywhere where it might benefit the characters primary tasks, or where it makes him unique (so I might put a 12 to a Barbarians Charisma Score, if I want the "cool - virgin rescuing type)

10-11: Okay Ability. Put anywhere where I don't really need a boost.

8-9: Dump Stat. Typically Charisma, Wisdom or Strength (depending on character).
7 or less: Impossible in point buy, thus I can't really imagine what to do with that...

 

[Aus_Snow]

But it is fair. [...]

Only to the same extent gambling is, I suppose. And I don't much like *that*, either.

Or IOW, you say 'tomayto', I say 'tomahto'.

Or, in another's words (werk's)... well, see above.

 

[Arnwyn]

For all the dice rollers (which are a severe minority judging bythis thread)

And one would be a poor judge by doing so (note the "if" in the OP). Even I voted for a point buy number. But, of course, one wouldn't be so foolish as to judge anything from an internet poll, right?

do you ever calculate out the stats to see what their point-buy would be?

I did it the LAST time I rolled for stats, I had one that was over 60, and one that was 18.

Yes, I have a few times, just for a bit of academic knowledge (ie. way back when learning what the heck "point buy" was, and how it compares to our rolling method, and what our particular group would consider a "hopeless character"). I don't remember what the results were from our particular sample size, but it was never as bad as your example.

I'm not argung that rolled stats aren't playable, just that it's not really fair.

Of course it's fair - everone rolls the same way.

Oh, wait - maybe what you actually meant was "not everyone ends up with exactly the same ability (scores)". You'd be right, there. And for our group, this is a good thing. What was your argument, again?

 

[werk]

What was your argument, again?

My argument is that point buy is fair and rolling is random, and therefore, intrinsically, not fair.