Point buy

[Pbartender]

It would've been real nice for people like me if WotC had published a legit table with rolled method to point buy comparisons.

I was kind of curious about this myself. I fiddled around with my spreadsheet a bit, and did a little analysis of the 4d6-lowest six times (reroll if total bonus < +1, or highest score <14) standard method. Here's what I found...

1. It is impossible to get a stat block with an equivalent point buy of 13 or less. 13 points, at best gives you either 14, 10, 10, 10, 9, 8 or 11, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10 both of which are invalid and would need to be rerolled.

2. It is impossible to get a stat block that must be rerolled with an equivalent point buy of 25 or more (a likely reason the base point buy starts at 25 points). The worst you can do with 25 points is 18, 13, 9, 9, 9, 9 or 13, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12 which are both still valid characters.

3. Anything between 14 and 24 points has varying degrees of attaining a playable character... A 14 point point buy will give an array of 14, 10, 10, 10, 10, 8, which is a "playable" character, and a 24 point buy will give an array of 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, which is not and would need to be rerolled.

4. In general, the standard 4d6-lowest six times method tends to create ability arrays with point buy totals in the mid-twenties to mid-thirties. Teens and forties are much less common. Single digits (or negatives!... 10, 3, 8, 7, 10, 12 ) and fifties or above exceptionally rare.

 

[Elf Witch]

Given that we pick who we play, rather than rolling for our personality, class, appearance and back story, is that such a bad thing?

You arent playing a "random person", you're playing a specific person.

IMO yes it is I hate seeing the same bland characters that get made with point buy. I hate the entire idea that there is such a thing as a subpar choice.

Some of my favorite characters I played would not have been possible with a 28 point buy. I could never have played my educated nobel knight who was a commander because on a 28 point buy I would not have had a decent enough stats to put in Str, Con , Int, and Chr but the fact that I rolled a 46 point character allowed me to make this character.

That is the reason I love rolling is that the randomness of the dice can give me some above average stats to try and make a different character instead of the straight fighter, wizard , rogue ect ect.

To be is not about being Superwoman it is about getting good enough stats to be at least a little better than just okay in something.

 

[Elf Witch]

I've never seen anyone roll a 7 or a 3, at least not in the set that goes on the character sheet. Most of the rolling systems I've seen in use make being forced to take a 3 or a 7 rather unlikely. On the other hand, I've seen several players choose to drop their stats because they wanted to play a character with a low stat.

Really I have never seen anything rolled below a 6 and I was the one who rolled it. I put it is wisdom and played this really reckless fighter and yes have a low will saved can be sucky but she was a blast to play. And she made it from 1 to 8 without once dying. Though for awhile she was really easy to charm and make go to sleep.

 

[Elf Witch]

Sorry, I just realized that you are the OP, and that this thread is meant to specifically address issues that you and only you experience and any other comments and statements intended for the broad audience of viewers are unwelcome.

Wait...you're not the OP...



On that note I'm going to heartfully agree with Nonlethal Force.

In my campaign I've noticed that my tendancy is to prefer higher statted PCs in response to the rough guesses I make at CR and EL, hence the 44 point buy. It works better if my PCs are all heroes, it makes them harder to kill, and the players can play pretty much anything they would like with regard to PrCs, feat combos, etc.

You give 44 points which gives the chance to really make some intresting choices so I can see why you like point buy. I would not mind a point buy with 44 points its the 25-28 point buy that I really hate because I find it limits my choice.

 

[FreeTheSlaves]

I hate the entire idea that there is such a thing as a subpar choice.

Some of my favorite characters I played would not have been possible with a 28 point buy. I could never have played my educated nobel knight who was a commander because on a 28 point buy I would not have had a decent enough stats to put in Str, Con , Int, and Chr but the fact that I rolled a 46 point character allowed me to make this character.

I can sympathize with the subpar issue because the game does seem to punish this. That said, the CR and wealth rules do contain seriously large wiggle room. In between average playtest characters, the large range within the CR 'bandwidth', and the assumed wealth spillage on one off items/expenses - a character can have or make numerous subpar choices and still not be effectively subpar. In fact you can pretty much just go hard and the system will pick up the slack, especially with single class characters.

The thing I can see with your favourite character example is that the roll might easily have not given you such a character, whereas a 50pt buy system would have. Don't want to roll forever but want a superman? Cut to the chase. Back to the favourite character, she is pretty rare right? What about the other players, are they playing a favourite character or just one of those ones that tide you over? I don't know about you but if my character doesn't really grab me then I would want to make another that does. If I'm allowed to reroll, well that devalues the rarity of other rolled characters right then and there - they are not as rare as they claim because everyone can be like that. Otoh if there's no reroll I'm going to either crank up the character production line or push for a new campaign. The first will, despite all efforts, detract to some degree and the second creates the stop/start inertia. Oh yes, I've been on both sides in this matter. Eventually, with clumps of hair in hand we look for a way out of the loop. So point buys 'cut to the chase' quality is real important for players (like me) who just won't accept having a non-favourite or sidekick character.

I would not mind a point buy with 44 points its the 25-28 point buy that I really hate because I find it limits my choice.

Oh yeah, totally agree.

 

[doghead]

I'm kinda over pushing around points in the point buy system. Given the choice, I'd rather roll. If it has to be point buy, I don't really care how many. Everyone else in the same boat. But I prefer under 30. An ordinary person attempting extraordinary things is more interesting than an extraordinary person attempting the same sort of things. But thats just me.

thotd

 

[doghead]

My argument is that point buy is fair and rolling is random, and therefore, intrinsically, not fair.

The whole game is built around rolling dice.

 

[genshou]

IMO yes it is I hate seeing the same bland characters that get made with point buy. I hate the entire idea that there is such a thing as a subpar choice.

Some of my favorite characters I played would not have been possible with a 28 point buy. I could never have played my educated nobel knight who was a commander because on a 28 point buy I would not have had a decent enough stats to put in Str, Con , Int, and Chr but the fact that I rolled a 46 point character allowed me to make this character.

That is the reason I love rolling is that the randomness of the dice can give me some above average stats to try and make a different character instead of the straight fighter, wizard , rogue ect ect.

To be is not about being Superwoman it is about getting good enough stats to be at least a little better than just okay in something.

It's just not fun to play a character with 25-28 point-buy by the time you get to 20th-level. I don't like how it restricts character concepts, and that's why I came up with the house rule I did (see my other post above for the link). I found in my last offline gaming group that some players tend toward a slow "power creep" in ability scores to indicate dissatisfaction with other factors of the ability score rules. Maybe you should give my rules a try and see if they fix that problem in your games. It's a lot of fun to start out small and grow into a heroic build over the course of your character's career; or start out pretty heroic and end up a lot more heroic. Everyone's "equal" by 20th-level unless someone rolls remarkably well, but if you roll you can still play Sir Gawain the Valorous and Formidable amongst a party of "normal" adventurers; they'll just eventually catch up.

 

[Elf Witch]

I can sympathize with the subpar issue because the game does seem to punish this. That said, the CR and wealth rules do contain seriously large wiggle room. In between average playtest characters, the large range within the CR 'bandwidth', and the assumed wealth spillage on one off items/expenses - a character can have or make numerous subpar choices and still not be effectively subpar. In fact you can pretty much just go hard and the system will pick up the slack, especially with single class characters.

The thing I can see with your favourite character example is that the roll might easily have not given you such a character, whereas a 50pt buy system would have. Don't want to roll forever but want a superman? Cut to the chase. Back to the favourite character, she is pretty rare right? What about the other players, are they playing a favourite character or just one of those ones that tide you over? I don't know about you but if my character doesn't really grab me then I would want to make another that does. If I'm allowed to reroll, well that devalues the rarity of other rolled characters right then and there - they are not as rare as they claim because everyone can be like that. Otoh if there's no reroll I'm going to either crank up the character production line or push for a new campaign. The first will, despite all efforts, detract to some degree and the second creates the stop/start inertia. Oh yes, I've been on both sides in this matter. Eventually, with clumps of hair in hand we look for a way out of the loop. So point buys 'cut to the chase' quality is real important for players (like me) who just won't accept having a non-favourite or sidekick character.


Oh yeah, totally agree.

Well in the game that I played character everyone loved their characters even the guy who rolled about 28 point character he was playing a mystic and he was offered by the DM later when the one guy rolled his 58 point character and I rolled mine (these were replacements) to redo his character with a 38 point buy he said no there was no need he was happy with the character.

And you are right about the chance that the roll might not have given me the same character as a matter of fact the character I was playing in the game right before this one was a rolled 32 point character.

I really should clarify my postion I don't object to point buy per say I object to being pigeon holded into a bland 28 point buy character all the time. It is not that I need high stats and I have glady played a rolled 28 point character (my actual favorite character of all time was 27 point sorcerer) and had fun but I don't want to play this type of character in every game.

When I DM I have players roll and if they hate their rolls I give them a point buy equivlent to the medium range of everyone else and if that does not work (which has not happened yet) then I would sit down and work it out so that they would have the character they want to play. It is a game and it is supposed tobe fun not frustrating.

As a matter of fact in my current hellenic game I wanted players to be like Hercules and Xena real strong heroes of legend so I gave them 38 points to start with the option to roll to see if they could get higher but if they didn't they still got the 38 points.

 

[Elf Witch]

It's just not fun to play a character with 25-28 point-buy by the time you get to 20th-level. I don't like how it restricts character concepts, and that's why I came up with the house rule I did (see my other post above for the link). I found in my last offline gaming group that some players tend toward a slow "power creep" in ability scores to indicate dissatisfaction with other factors of the ability score rules. Maybe you should give my rules a try and see if they fix that problem in your games. It's a lot of fun to start out small and grow into a heroic build over the course of your character's career; or start out pretty heroic and end up a lot more heroic. Everyone's "equal" by 20th-level unless someone rolls remarkably well, but if you roll you can still play Sir Gawain the Valorous and Formidable amongst a party of "normal" adventurers; they'll just eventually catch up.

This is kind of interesting do your players enjoy it?