Point buy

[Nonlethal Force]

I think somewhere over the last page this has started to go down hill. This thread is not a debate about dice rolling! It is a catalogue of personal tastes. It really wasn't even to be a debate at all!


Having said that, I appreciate the well thought-outness (is that even I word? I don't think so!) of your reply, Mustrum_Ridcully.

Interesting question. As I said, we usually play 25 point buy characters.


18: Powergamers Wet Dream Ability: I have no idea how I should get there, unless I find PrCs that would allow me to use this ability score for anyhting (saves, skill points, hit points)

17: Incredibible ability: Much like the 18, but slightly more "realistic"

16: Superior Ability: Very Nice, possibly for a very focused character (Wizards and maybe Fighters might fit this)

15: Excellent Ability: Probably the highest I choose for any given character.

14: Good Ability: Goes into any secondary ability scores or to multiple stats for MAD-characters.

13: Fine Ability. Goes usually into ability scores that either grant access to feats with that value (assuming I actually want that feat) - examples are dex and int - or that aids one of my primary character abiltities and doesn't lose out if I improve it later (so no to int in that case, but yes to Constitution, Dexterity or Strength)

12: Fine Ability (as 13): Put anywhere where it might benefit the characters primary tasks, or where it makes him unique (so I might put a 12 to a Barbarians Charisma Score, if I want the "cool - virgin rescuing type)

10-11: Okay Ability. Put anywhere where I don't really need a boost.

8-9: Dump Stat. Typically Charisma, Wisdom or Strength (depending on character).
7 or less: Impossible in point buy, thus I can't really imagine what to do with that...

This gives me an interesting perspective. As a typical 32 point-buyer ... I would say that my personal tastes are shifted 2 numbers up from each of yours.

20 becomes the wetdream ability,
19 becomes possible but still unlikely,
18 becomes a very nice ability score for the very focused,
17 is still quite nice,
16 is the good score and especially good for a secondary stat,

and so-on.

I think this is beginning to demonstrate that our impression of what a "good ability score" is makes us pre-disposed to a particular point-buy system.

 

[SWBaxter]

And I have agreed every time: it doesn't seem fair.

I consider it more along the lines of "not fun" than "not fair". Stats play a relatively significant role in determining what feats/classes/etc. a character can reasonably take, I kinda dislike seeing a player have to junk an interesting concept just because the dice weren't cooperating. Of course, you can always go with the various reroll and/or adjustment house rules, but at that point you might as well just be using point buy in the first place.

So far as the poll goes, I use different point buys for different campaigns, so it's hard to pin down a vote. So long as the point buy matches the feel of the campaign, it's all good.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

Another reason I don't like point buy is that I have never seen any PC with a stat lower than an 8. There is no reason to do it because you don't get any benefits by going lower.

Given that we pick who we play, rather than rolling for our personality, class, appearance and back story, is that such a bad thing?

You arent playing a "random person", you're playing a specific person.

 

[Arnwyn]

My argument is that point buy is fair and rolling is random, and therefore, intrinsically, not fair.

Okay. Your statement is meaningless for our particular group, however.

 

[prosfilaes]

Another reason I don't like point buy is that I have never seen any PC with a stat lower than an 8. There is no reason to do it because you don't get any benefits by going lower.

With rolling you sometimes get a lower stat like a 7 or gasp a 3 and that can be a role playing challenge.

I've never seen anyone roll a 7 or a 3, at least not in the set that goes on the character sheet. Most of the rolling systems I've seen in use make being forced to take a 3 or a 7 rather unlikely. On the other hand, I've seen several players choose to drop their stats because they wanted to play a character with a low stat.

 

[werk]

Okay. Your statement is meaningless for our particular group, however.

Sorry, I just realized that you are the OP, and that this thread is meant to specifically address issues that you and only you experience and any other comments and statements intended for the broad audience of viewers are unwelcome.

Wait...you're not the OP...



On that note I'm going to heartfully agree with Nonlethal Force.

In my campaign I've noticed that my tendancy is to prefer higher statted PCs in response to the rough guesses I make at CR and EL, hence the 44 point buy. It works better if my PCs are all heroes, it makes them harder to kill, and the players can play pretty much anything they would like with regard to PrCs, feat combos, etc.

 

[FreeTheSlaves]

As things get a wee bit heated it may help to reflect upon the key difference between rolling and point buy is that each system does what it is supposed to do. A random system gives the player information before character concept while a point buy system requires the player to provide information before allocation. That each system has nuances that strike some players as undesirable comes with the territory.

****

I like point buy but there are some issues that cause some thought or concern:

1) The dm assigned baseline. How do my stats compare with other npcs (shopkeeps, guards, guildmasters, champions)? This may sound a bit so what but when integrating the character into the campaign world I like to know how (in)capable he or she is, in a relative way. Then I can tweak background and personality to more fairly reflect the character.
2) Even Steven. Yep, all evens can jar the eye because the deliberate lack of organicness is so apparent. A campaign of length gets around this because of the boost every 4 levels, so does using 25, elite array, and 35 point buy values.
3) Hit points. The philosophy behind point buy naturally migrates to hps. Using any other method than average (or max) skews the outcome favourably towards certain classes of the same hit dice. Interestingly, using max first hd and average hps thereafter makes 1st level multi-class choices a wee bit more tactical. Will the rogue/barb choose 6 more hps or 16 more skills? (Probably skills unless the build has a narrow focus)
4) *Insert thought here*

 

[genshou]

Other.

And I tend to start with randomly rolled stats (3d6, reroll 1s is my favourite method).

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Just to be clear, my favorite game system, HERO, is all about point buy.

However, point buy is no more fair than rolling dice. Its not quite apples & oranges, its more like Red Delicious & Gala.

In each case, you have a common starting point. In point buy, each player has an equal point pool from which to design a PC. In random D6's, each player has the same number of dice to roll. While some people consider point buy's common starting line as intrinsically fair, others view eliminating highs and lows generated by randomization as a neutering of the PC creation process- you're taking away the player's chance to "hit the jackpot" by rolling really well, and also taking away the challenge of potentially being inspired by some really poor stats.

Additionally, point buy eliminates PC concepts just like random rolling does. If you go back to earlier editions, you'd be hard pressed to design Monk, Ranger or Paladin PCs with most "reasonable" point buy systems- those classes almost required an average stat of 14 to be effective. While that is not as much of a mechanical issue in D20, point buy still axes certain concepts.

There was an ancient Olympian competitor nicknamed Beta who earned his nickname by being 2nd best in every event in which he competed- a legendarily well rounded athelete. In modern times, you could look to multi-sport competitors like Jim Thorpe. Unless your point buy is quite high, though, such a build is nigh impossible without making him stupid, impulsive, and misanthropic in the balance.

 

[FreeTheSlaves]

Well talk of 'fairness' is really talk about the fairness of opportunity vs the fairness of outcome. Take a pick of which you prefer. Me? I'd prefer an inclusive approach that accomodated both, rather than the either/or antagonisms. It would've been real nice for people like me if WotC had published a legit table with rolled method to point buy comparisons. Anyway I'm moving from the point of the thread.

Whatever generation system you use you model something. If you want the characters to model the highly varied general society you use something like 3d6. 4d6 will model a more skewed elite strata but still touching base with the absolute worst off. The minimum total modifier and stat spike coupled with the 4d6 cuts away the characters that are or approach the absolute worst. What then do the point buy methods model? Well they model a strata of the populace that possess equivalent ability. Unless the point buy is 96 they never model the absolute peak strata but something below, usually quite above average well below the maximum. Point buy thereby generates a group of true peers, which would seldom naturally occur in a society (assuming 3d6). It really is a meta template.