Points of Light and the Forgotten Realms

[William Ronald]

I wish the CCC had the anocrym KKK. Then I could call them the Knights of the Krispy Kritter.

See my earlier comments on the Espruar elven font -- an elf would likely use Ks to render that name in our alphapet. Of course, I would like to see the CCC resembling a krispy kritter -- that kind of had a skydiving accident onto a few hundred upright spears.

 

[AdmundfortGeographer]

See my earlier comments on the Espruar elven font -- an elf would likely use Ks to render that name in our alphapet.

When did the Espruar font change? I'm looking at the Gray Box's Cyclopedia of the Realms and it shows an Espruar equivalence to the letter C. But the 3e FRCS has it missing. What's with that?

 

[Uzzy]

The bolded part illustrates horrible game design. Particularly if the players can reach similar power levels with time.

It should really take quite some time for Characters to hit Epic Levels. And heck, Elminsters around 35th level. If your playing a campaign where players can hit that level quickly, then perhaps it is a problem.

If this is really how he is intended to be used, he should strictly stat-free, and treated more as a sort of demigod, rather the Sean Connery with a staff.

I've no problem with Elminster's stats being CG Human, Wizard 29. Like they were in the 2nd Edition Campaign Setting. I see his stats as essentially meaningless, save in silly online debates.

If you fail to accept that continually saying "He's fighting threats you couldn't even understand" has a deleterious effect on player morale in most groups, then well, I think that's pretty "out there".

It might have an effect in some groups. Those that can't accept that perhaps some people in the world are more powerful then them at this time, for instance. I don't get why players need to feel that they are automatically the top dog in the entire world.

If it were otherwise, the authors would ensure their characters were reasonably powered and didn't get in the way of the setting.

I do wish more novels would concentrate on the smaller scale characters too. I get tired of RSE's as well. It doesn't need a 100 year jump to correct that.

It's inappropriate, and the reason they exist is not "flavour text", despite Greenwood's claims, but bad author pet-character-pushing.

Ed came up with Elminster when he was 8 years old, along with many thousands of other characters. He has said time and again that Elminster is not his pet character. Infact, Dragon 359 had this to say on that point. 'If he was looking for a wish fulfilment character he'd pick someone younger, saner, more handsome - and a whole lot less dangerous to be, and be around.' I think Ed knows how Ed feels about a character, and he's answered that question consistently for many years now.

If, though, we hear:

1) The Seven Sisters
2) Various high ranking Harper-types
3) The Simbul
4) Assorted other chosen of Mystra
5) The Obaskyr family line
6) That filthy spellfire witch
7) Various Knights of Myth Drannor

Given the current Realms setting as per Shadowdale: The Scouring of the Land. Spoilers!

1) Sylune's Dead. Laeral is busy being pregnant with her twins. The Simbul is busy ruling Aglarond. Alustriel is busy running Silverymoon. Qilue is busy running the Eilistraeen faith. That leaves Storm and Dove, who are both busy protecting Myth Drannor with the KoMD. So out of those seven, only Storm and Dove might reasonably be encountered in adventures.
2) Such as? The Code of the Harpers shows that the active Harpers are between Levels 5 and 12, mostly. The ones in charge are a high level, such as Cylyria Dragonbreast, 26th Level Bard. But she's not one who will be going on adventurers, as she's busy managing both Twilight Hall (and by extension a lot of Harper activity) and Berdusk.
3) See point 1.
4) Khelben's dead. Elminster is 'gravely wounded and hidden somewhere recovering', according to Shadowdale.
5) There's a Regent in charge. The next king is a young boy. The Royal Magician is new to the job, and still finding her feet. The Obarskyr line is in quite a bit of danger, if you ask me. Danger that the PC's may very well need to help stop.
6) Long dead.
7) Busy protecting Myth Drannor.

but it makes for a better gaming environment than superheroic good-aligned characters who mysteriously always have to be down at the DMV whenever the villains roll into town.

*sigh* For every 'Superheroic' Good Aligned NPC, there are about ten Supervillianous Evil Aligned NPC's. Once again, I point you to 'The Concerns of the Mighty', Page 84, FRCS. It's explained quite clearly there. It's also explained quite clearly in the thread I linked to in a previous post. I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question.

 

[Mouseferatu]

Spoilers:

Spoiler

They are a KKK-esque racist organization that attacks the orcs wearing black robes and hoods. Apparently 100 years into the realms future there is peace between the orcs of the Citadel of Many Arrows (under King Azoun VI) and the other races of the area (elves, humans, dwarves) thought it's not necessarily an easy peace as there are plenty of folks on both sides who hang on to the old prejudices. All of this comes from the prologue chapter of Salvatore's The Orc King linked earlier in this thread.

You know, I realize that the metaphor is a bit heavy-handed--but I have to admit, I like the basic idea as a plot point. In a relatively new peace between races formerly in conflict, this sort of organization is certainly a viable possibility. And I think they make for interesting villains.

That said, I do agree that

Spoiler

the initials CCC, and the robes-and-hoods combo, is probably taking things a bit too far. I don't find it offensive, but I do think it could've been more imaginative.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

*sigh* For every 'Superheroic' Good Aligned NPC, there are about ten Supervillianous Evil Aligned NPC's. Once again, I point you to 'The Concerns of the Mighty', Page 84, FRCS. It's explained quite clearly there. It's also explained quite clearly in the thread I linked to in a previous post. I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question.

Then maybe you should cut back on the snideness and cute responses and read what people are saying.

One more time: It's a load of crap for someone to ALWAYS be busy, especially if something is happening in their town. If the NPCs in question are really good aligned, the notion that they will let evil go by right under their noses, because the PCs, or someone, will take care of it, then they're not good-aligned any more.

Now, if you have players who think this is A-OK -- and honestly, a lot of the folks on this thread insisting it's not a problem come off as FR readers, not DMs or players -- swell. But it's not a personal moral failing of the players or a failure of the DM if, eventually, the players roll their eyes when they hear the reason they have to go clean up the backyard of one of the Forgotten Realms' superheroes is that said superheroes are busy with something elsewhere again.

Unless Elminster only has a Shadowdale home address for tax purposes, he's got to be home at some point.

I've read "Concerns of the Mighty." I own (and like) the FRCS. But the "Concerns of the Mighty" sidebar is a sop and, frankly, doesn't really work in actual play.

But like the oWoD, the Forgotten Realms has a ton of people who buy game books to read them, not play them. Naturally, they encounter few problems in actual play.

 

[Jared Rascher]

Then maybe you should cut back on the snideness and cute responses and read what people are saying.

One more time: It's a load of crap for someone to ALWAYS be busy, especially if something is happening in their town. If the NPCs in question are really good aligned, the notion that they will let evil go by right under their noses, because the PCs, or someone, will take care of it, then they're not good-aligned any more.

Now, if you have players who think this is A-OK -- and honestly, a lot of the folks on this thread insisting it's not a problem come off as FR readers, not DMs or players -- swell. But it's not a personal moral failing of the players or a failure of the DM if, eventually, the players roll their eyes when they hear the reason they have to go clean up the backyard of one of the Forgotten Realms' superheroes is that said superheroes are busy with something elsewhere again.

Unless Elminster only has a Shadowdale home address for tax purposes, he's got to be home at some point.

I've read "Concerns of the Mighty." I own (and like) the FRCS. But the "Concerns of the Mighty" sidebar is a sop and, frankly, doesn't really work in actual play.

But like the oWoD, the Forgotten Realms has a ton of people who buy game books to read them, not play them. Naturally, they encounter few problems in actual play.

I'm glad to know that you are so in tune with people running Realms campaigns. I've run Forgotten Realms campaigns for 20 years, and I've never had a problem with the idea that a handfull of really high level characters can't defend an entire continent by themselves.

I guess Merlin handled all of the problems everywhere in Camelot as well.

But yeah, its great that you know so well how every person that runs a Realms campaign is running it.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

I'm glad to know that you are so in tune with people running Realms campaigns. I've run Forgotten Realms campaigns for 20 years, and I've never had a problem with the idea that a handfull of really high level characters can't defend an entire continent by themselves.

I guess Merlin handled all of the problems everywhere in Camelot as well.

But yeah, its great that you know so well how every person that runs a Realms campaign is running it.

I never said I did. Are you going to say that your experience speaks for everyone playing the Forgotten Realms?

All I was saying is that experiences vary, a notion Uzzy has repeatedly sneered at.

 

[Irda Ranger]

Also, I imagine that if the Realms is shook up greatly, there will be even more reason to keep the big name NPCs busy elsewhere -- with perhaps a hint of what is going on elsewhere. So, if Elminster needs to keep an eye out of whatever is happening on Myth Drannor, or deal with other problems, that is where he should be.

Hmmm ... slight tangent, but I think that the 'quick leveling' of 3e (which apparently will be worse in 4e), with no to little 'down time' between adventures (other than whatever time it takes the wizard to transmogrify dungeon swag into +4 Cloaks of Resistance) contributes to the player's expectations that major NPC's should often be available. After all, adventures usually take a week or two, right? Shouldn't he be back by now?

J.R.R. Tolkien doesn't make a big deal of it, but some of the 'adventures' that the main characters took prior to Frodo's journey took years. According to the Wikipedia timeline, Aragorn and Gandalf spend 17 years looking for Gollumn / trying to track down the history of Bilbo's ring (perhaps not 'full time', but still ...). In David Edding's books Belgarath the Eternal Man (and the other Apostles of Aldur) was known to become involved in tasks that occupied his attention for centuries at a time. Unless the world was literally about to end, it wasn't worth his time. Magical research came first.

Maybe the best way to handle Elminster is just to have him really distant. Like, the PC's show up in Shadowdale and the locals mentioned that no one has seen hide or hair of Elminster in going on fifteen years now. There's one unlucky geezer who's lived in the village his whole life (64 years) and never met the man, always being out of town when "the Sage" makes one of his rare appearances. Maybe there's a doorbell on the tower that says "Ring if Apocalypse Imminent", and local stories tell of the noble Ambassador sent from Amn who lost a hand about twenty years ago having pulled on the rope for a lesser reason. Elminster is "Good" (he'll show up if the Apocalypse actually is imminent, and try to stop it), but because of his point of view (immortality, consort with Gods, etc.) most things that 'normal' people consider really important (like the sacking of Cormyr) are just the ebb and flow of history to him. It's a bit like watching the tide come in and out.

I know the above argument is going to get the reaction that "that's not really 'good' then", but my only explanation would be "good and evil, like many things, depend on your point of view."

Naturally this works best using Ruin Explorer's "no stats; he's a demi-god" scenario.

 

[William Ronald]

Can we have maybe a little more light and a little less heat in this thread. I don't want to see a blow up that will cause the moderators to shut things down.

I guess this is something where your miles may vary. I have pretty much been in home brews with an occassional trip into the Realms or Greyhawk.

However, I think that we can agree that DMs will handle things differently. I don't see a bunch of high level good characters as an inherent flaw in a setting.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Maybe the best way to handle Elminster is just to have him really distant. Like, the PC's show up in Shadowdale and the locals mentioned that no one has seen hide or hair of Elminster in going on fifteen years now. There's one unlucky geezer who's lived in the village his whole life (64 years) and never met the man, always being out of town when "the Sage" makes one of his rare appearances. Maybe there's a doorbell on the tower that says "Ring if Apocalypse Imminent", and local stories tell of the noble Ambassador sent from Amn who lost a hand about twenty years ago having pulled on the rope for a lesser reason.

I like Elminister as a recluse. I think this solves most of the problems. But his depiction in the novels would have to match.

A jump forward (whether 10 or 100 years) would be a natural breakpoint to emphasize this aspect of his personality.