Points-of-light is not just for post-apocalyptic fantasy

[ruleslawyer]

Interesting. I guess I just got a different feel from the materials, especially stuff like this:

"The Savage Frontier." "The Savage North." “The North.” The terms are many but they all refer to the same area: The area between the Sword Coast and Anauroch the Great Desert. Where the boundaries end depend on one’s point of view. To Waterdhavians, the North begins at the city, stretches due east of Waterdeep to the desert, and encompasses all parts north of this line. To the satraps of Calimshan, the “cold land of savages and beasts” begins at the northern border of Amn. Many cartographers in the Realms today compromise between the many and varied “borders” and delineate the start of the Savage North at the northern banks of Delimbiyr, the River Shining.

The North is a rugged, heavily wooded wilderness only lightly civilized and ruled by humans. Such civilization envelops the coastal regions (as far inward as the Long Road running from Mirabar to Waterdeep) securely; the vast, open, rolling valley lands of the river Dessarin are less secure, and the eastern regions with the High Forest and the mountains are only as civilized as far as one’s swordpoint.

The North has been this way for decades, but it wasn’t always so. One thousand years ago, the North consisted of a number of civilized elven and dwarven realms surrounded by a wilderness roamed by fearsome monsters, and such races as orcs, trolls, goblins, and bugbears. Human tribes were few and primitive, dwelling along the coast. The lower birth rates of the demihuman races rendered them less able to replace casualties suffered in their almost continual fighting with the aggressive humanoids and their numbers dwindled steadily. Pushed southward by the ever expanding, fecund orc tribes, the dwarves and elves either abandoned realms in retreat or fell, overwhelmed by numbers and slaughtered. The many resulting, largely-empty dwarven delves and holds are what are now referred to by human adventurers as “dungeons.”

The demihumans, although they achieved many splendid victories in battle, could not stem the humanoid tide even when they united (see the Fallen Kingdom under “Places of Interest” below). Today, the dwarves remain only around the richest mithral mines in the North, and no known elven settlements of any appreciable size exist north of Evereska. The rise of human power in the North outstripped even the growth of the orcs, and prevented the total collapse of civilization in the area.

The North remains a land of riches, mineral wealth equalled nowhere else in the known Realms, and seemingly endless stands of timber of a size not found elsewhere in Faerûn. Game is plentiful, and the landscape is beautiful. Be warned, though – danger is always lurking and, for the most part, the law of the North is the law of the sword.

I guess there are two points here:

1) I agree strongly with the OP about the flexibility/ubiquity of the PoL concept. As long as the only control available is control in force, PoL is usable in any number of ways.

2) PoL also implies light, as in points of. There has to be some civilization out there in order to explain the existence of all the cool toys that PCs like, and to give them something to defend. Borderlands (as in Keep On the...) implies a border between civilization and wilderness.

This isn't to say that dark fantasy worlds like Athas or Aryth (Midnight) don't have their place, but certainly the default would suggest a world more like Greyhawk or the Realms: One in which kingdoms or empires, city-states, and towns ruled both by good and evil forces may exist, surrounded by vast areas of wilderness.

 

[Prince of Happiness]

See, I consider these things essential to creating any setting. PoL does require that there be... well, points of light.

As for "invasion corridors": Keep in mind that the sourcebooks made it pretty clear that those roads were not passable in winter or rough weather. More to the point: What armies would be using those roads as "invasion corridors," exactly? More likely an orc horde than anything else, given the lack of large standing armies in places like Waterdeep (which by no means "owned" the Sword Coast, given the number of pirate holds and the like that feature in Volo's and the 2e boxed set Sword Coast materials).

Likewise, having hundreds of small towns and villages is... well, kinda what even European Dark Ages society was like. The idea of all of humanity being confined to the cities with no life in between would raise serious issues regarding agriculture and where these people got FOOD. Likewise with trade goods.

A setting with no trade or politics is just, well, nothing but combat. It's nice that the Realms has both vast areas of wilderness as well as lands where "civilized" intrigue can come to the fore.

See, this stuff is an important issue to me because it seems to be influencing how the designers are treating the Realms (or their default setting) in 4e. Greyhawk has large kingdoms, ROADS, trade, and so on. Eberron goes several steps beyond in having common House communication and magical means of travel and transport of goods available. Yet these settings aren't getting taken apart in order to accommodate the "points of light" feel. To my mind, the Realms is getting the short end of the stick, in part because there's the (IMHO unjustified) sentiment that Faerun is somehow more "civilization-overrun" than either the Flanaess or Khorvaire.

I know, but I'm looking back on what the 17 year-old POH was thinking. That doesn't match my viewpoint now. Nowadays the new villages I would find in the Volo's Guide to the Sword Coast, for example, may or may not be there from one year or the next. Orcs and hobgoblins would knock on the gates of Waterdeep and politely ask if they could come inside for a spot of pillage.

 

[ruleslawyer]

I got ya, I got ya! I'm not attempting to proselytize a decade after the fact here (in fact, I have no desire to proselytize whatsoever!), but rather pointing out how the OP's point is interesting to apply in the context of different campaign worlds.

 

[Prince of Happiness]

I got ya, I got ya! I'm not attempting to proselytize a decade after the fact here (in fact, I have no desire to proselytize whatsoever!), but rather pointing out how the OP's point is interesting to apply in the context of different campaign worlds.

It is very interesting! I would definitely have points like Silverymoon, Waterdeep, hell even Phlan's neighbors sweating themselves wondering if they could be next! It would be interesting especially in the case of Waterdeep, who might find their backs against the wall. They need more men, but the only ones who are willing to soldier up is........Amn.

 

[Irda Ranger]

Right, but the impression that I was getting (over ten years ago, mind you) was that the vast areas of wilderness were becoming very not-vast very quickly.

Apropos of little, the only thing I really remember from the Volo Guides (I read them last almost 15 years ago now), are the number of forks and coins various Inns were rated. I really can't recall if the 'danger' threatening the 'weak threads' connecting the points of light was explicitly spelled out or something that had to be inferred.

The Moonsea always did seem very p.o.l. to me. I liked the norther shore of the Moonsea for some good adventuring, and set a short-lived campaign there.

 

[Prince of Happiness]

Apropos of little, the only thing I really remember from the Volo Guides (I read them last almost 15 years ago now), are the number of forks and coins various Inns were rated. I really can't recall if the 'danger' threatening the 'weak threads' connecting the points of light was explicitly spelled out or something that had to be inferred.

The Moonsea always did seem very p.o.l. to me. I liked the norther shore of the Moonsea for some good adventuring, and set a short-lived campaign there.

The younger me though the same way too. Of course, even then I was always obsessed with food, so I could have glossed over all the peril and just went to looking for the inns that had food-porn and described hot female innkeepers.

 

[kerbarian]

Funny; I've always thought that the distinctive element of "modern" games like Shadowrun is precisely that avoiding legal consequences was half the battle. 10% of a shadowrun is actually achieving the objective; 90% is doing it in such a manner that no one knew you were ever there.

It's definitely an element of the game, and it's a bad run if you get caught (even on video). What I had trouble with is -- one bad run, and then the characters have to live in hiding for the rest of their lives, even if they got away? Lone Star knows their faces, voiceprints, etc., and if Lone Star has a presence everywhere, that's a huge problem. But if Lone Star only has a strong presence in a core "green zone", then characters could live their lives fairly normally, even after they've become wanted criminals.

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

To me it implied that there was a lot of trade rather than scrambling to get your settlements in order before the orcs/goblins/Chakka Khan came back to kill people and take their stuff. There was also an implication the roads were quite reasonably passable and well-maintained implying a lot of jurisdictions that could and would maintain invasion corridors...er, ROADS. That and that Cormyr was well ordered, Waterdeep practically owned the Sword Coast and much of the interior, Sembia's just sittin' there making money, Baldur's Gate is a safe house indeed thanks to the Flaming Fist, etc.

A friend of mine uses older edition FR random encounter tables. Those really reinforce the idea that the areas between settlements are dangerous monster-filled wildernesses. Especially before you're level 10.

 

[Irda Ranger]

The younger me though the same way too. Of course, even then I was always obsessed with food, so I could have glossed over all the peril and just went to looking for the inns that had food-porn and described hot female innkeepers.

Stop that! You make us sound like desperate geeks who needed to get out more!

 

[Hairfoot]

I agree that FR was always a predominantly PoL setting, but I also agree that the Spellplague and related disasters are going to constitute an apocalypse. So it will be PA in the same sense that Dragonlance is.