PoL & population density

[Ahglock]

If the roads are teeming with monsters such that they're completely and totally impassable, as you state, the world is completely untenable. Trade cannot exist, which means each settlement has to survive on its own natural resources and knowledge. Bronze wouldn't exist because copper and tin don't generally co-exist, steel would be limited to a handful of settlements at best, and most settlements would be using copper or bone/stone weapons. Cities would be absolutely impossible due to lack of food (cities must import food to be viable - if the wilderness is too dangerous to travel through, it's much too dangerous to farm). Settlements without viable weapons and armor - bronze or steel - would be so much chaff to even a single powerful monster such as a troll or manticore, let alone the local tribe of orcs or goblins. We wouldn't have so much "Points of Light" as we would "near-total darkness with maybe one or two pinpricks of light".

The roads aren't supposed to be totally impassable just dangerous. Some merchants can actually make a living on it, but they are rare since it is dangerous work. Sure the roving elves can survive its just would be harder for them than for the people with settlements. Heck it will be harder for them than it is fr the merchants and by a decent margin. The merchants can stock up and travel between two points with a decent set of guards. The elves have to travel constantly and some how resupply in the field with no rest points of safety.

As for the wilderness being too dangerous to farm, well sure, but once you settle a land and secure an area it is no longer wilderness. Even still in a POL setting settlements are supposed to go under sometimes, an area thought to be secured just wasn't secured enough. They really should of cleared that goblin nest in the caves of chaos.

 

[Zurai]

Again, people are having issues because they interpret "darkness" as "wilderness containing tons of big mean nasty things that will eat me as soon as I lose sight of the last house in town. Or maybe even before then."

That is not a correct interpretation. The darkness is a lack of knowledge of the outside world. Much as medieval maps contained huge blank holes in the heart of Africa and Asia with the legend "Here there be dragons". There are no dragons in this world, but people thought there were (or other terrible monsters eager to dine on wanderers) and only the brave few wandered into the unexplored.

In a points of light setting, the entire population density of the world as a whole is low. "Light" and "monsters" both. There are great distances between towns - weeks or more of travel at the smallest - and few if any know with any certainty what lies in the wilderness. Trade exists, but not in the great Silk Road caravans, rather being small bands of wanderers and peddlers who have too much wanderlust to settle in any one place. These nomads know of maybe a half-dozen towns and spend the year traveling from one to the next, trading needed goods for food and shelter, and in turn supplying the towns with things they can't get on their own. Knowledge, too, is an expensive commodity - knowledge of safe paths through the wilderness, knowledge of ways to fight off monsters and raiders, knowledge of techniques to enhance the way of life. It's dangerous work, but just enough people do it to keep the points of light from being extinguished.

Wait. Huh? I don't follow.

I do get the impression that Zurai meant something different than what you took away from it, though.

Yes, he appears to have utterly missed my message and taken only what he wanted from it. Points of Light where the darkness is an active threat is untenable. Points of Light where the darkness is a passive threat is tenable and engaging.

 

[Mirtek]

That is not a correct interpretation.

There is no "correct interpretation" but there is the interpretation that WotC is using in their articles and this is one of the interpretations that doesn't make sense. However WotC is still using it as they seem to think that it's better for gamist worlds (which may be true, it's just impossible for any plausible world)

That is not a correct interpretation. The darkness is a lack of knowledge of the outside world. Much as medieval maps contained huge blank holes in the heart of Africa and Asia with the legend "Here there be dragons". There are no dragons in this world, but people thought there were (or other terrible monsters eager to dine on wanderers) and only the brave few wandered into the unexplored.

In a points of light setting, the entire population density of the world as a whole is low. "Light" and "monsters" both.

However I fail to see how this is supposed to improve the gaming expierence. While the ignorant townfolk fears the attack from the darkness they believe to be inevitable, they PC heroes waiting at the PoL to defend against this attack wait and wait and wait until they have to realize that no attack is coming and the townfolk are just paranoid

Even worse, when the go out into the darkness (after the realization that they have wasted their time waiting to defend the PoL) they won't encounter anything because the "Here there be dragons" warning was wrong and the few evil humanoids are just as scarse as the PoLs

Trade exists, but not in the great Silk Road caravans, rather being small bands of wanderers and peddlers who have too much wanderlust to settle in any one place.

I don't think such a trickle of trade would be enough to support the specialist that are assumed to exist in D&D. Good luck with buying a suit of masterwork fullplate or even a non-masterwork suit of fullplate, not PoL has developed the neccessary specialist to make them

 

[Ahglock]

Again, people are having issues because they interpret "darkness" as "wilderness containing tons of big mean nasty things that will eat me as soon as I lose sight of the last house in town. Or maybe even before then."

.

Maybe we will end up being wrong, but the interpretation we are giving is the one that matches the descriptions of the POL as described by the designers. I'm not describing my POL setting or my views on what a POL setting should be but describing what has been released to us so far.

 

[Ahglock]

There is no "correct interpretation" but there is the interpretation that WotC is using in their articles and this is one of the interpretations that doesn't make sense. However WotC is still using it as they seem to think that it's better for gamist worlds (which may be true, it's just impossible for any plausible world)

Apparently I'm slow to post.

 

[HeinorNY]

The darkness is a lack of knowledge of the outside world.

And also a lack of control over it. There is no order, no law and safety past the city gates. There is no persistent kingdom, no sovereignty. When you leave the city, you are at your own.

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

However I fail to see how this is supposed to improve the gaming expierence....
Even worse, when the go out into the darkness (after the realization that they have wasted their time waiting to defend the PoL) they won't encounter anything because the "Here there be dragons" warning was wrong and the few evil humanoids are just as scarse as the PoLs

The question is, what are you debating here? The macro level of the setting could very well be as Zurai posits with a 'passive' darkness awaiting to gobble up the errant travellor while at the micro level, 'Points of Darkness' roam about and occasionally assualts a PoL.

Thats where your adventuring heroes come in, not in the 7 years of fair weather and good harvest that kept the village in the area..but in the 1 year in which Something has driven the Orc hordes from thier caves in the hills to eat the farmers.
And perhaps that Something is a darker PoD that the heroes needs to chase into the depths of its lair and destroy.

Take a look at the ocean sometime.. nice calm and complacent, until you look closer and see the hidden riptides and turbelance scattered about. How dark you want your world setting will drive how much turbelance you stir into the flow of your setting. But too much turbelance and the PoL will be drowned out, so you need a balance.

To me, this balance fits much as Zurai's post reads.. days and days of unterupted travel insterspersed with minutes of white knuckle terror as the Kobolds attack

And in this balance, a small tribe of nomads who are aware of the land can avoid being wiped out by continually moving and living off the land. And be in much less danger than the communities that set root in one place thinking that thier vigilence and weapons will be enough to drive off any terrors.

I don't think such a trickle of trade would be enough to support the specialist that are assumed to exist in D&D. Good luck with buying a suit of masterwork fullplate or even a non-masterwork suit of fullplate, not PoL has developed the neccessary specialist to make them

IMO, this isn't a bad thing. Full plate would then be available in two places, a strong Point or in the depths of some ruins. Works for me!
Much better than walking into the Hamlet of Homlett and purchasing the finest crafted arms and armor.... but thats just my opinion.

Side note, anyone read Glen Cooks "Instrumentalities of the Night"? Excellent PoL setting full of cities and armies...

 

[Zurai]

there is the interpretation that WotC is using in their articles and this is one of the interpretations that doesn't make sense. However WotC is still using it as they seem to think that it's better for gamist worlds (which may be true, it's just impossible for any plausible world)

I've read WotC's articles and I fail to see anything in them that does not support the Points of Light concept as I describe. I do see things in them that do not support PoL as described by detractors in this thread - namely what I have been talking about so far.

However I fail to see how this is supposed to improve the gaming expierence. While the ignorant townfolk fears the attack from the darkness they believe to be inevitable, they PC heroes waiting at the PoL to defend against this attack wait and wait and wait until they have to realize that no attack is coming and the townfolk are just paranoid

Even worse, when the go out into the darkness (after the realization that they have wasted their time waiting to defend the PoL) they won't encounter anything because the "Here there be dragons" warning was wrong and the few evil humanoids are just as scarse as the PoLs

Plot is the DM's best friend. It's much more likely, plausible, and sensible for there to be a new orc warlord that's uniting the clans into an army in a PoL world as I describe (and from there have increasing attacks on settlements, maybe one or two towns completely destroyed, and the PCs repel an attack on their own town, leading to an adventure to kill the warlord - as an example), than it is to suppose that every town has access to iron, flux, copious quantities of food, trained men-at-arms, leaders capable of organizing staunch resistance... and yet the roads are still utterly impassible because the wilderness is ultra-dangerous, as Irda Ranger describes.

I don't think such a trickle of trade would be enough to support the specialist that are assumed to exist in D&D. Good luck with buying a suit of masterwork fullplate or even a non-masterwork suit of fullplate, not PoL has developed the neccessary specialist to make them

Since full plate is outside the price range of any small settlement even in 3rd edition, I don't see how your argument carries much weight in that regard. Full Plate is indeed specialized gear. Boiled leather, with maybe some metal or bone studs, is doable anywhere, though. Any village blacksmith can make ring mail or probably even something equivalent to half plate, given enough time and materials. You don't need much trade to support boiled leather armor, nor lighter metal armor.

A sparse overall population density doesn't prevent there being points of light (or darkness, for that matter) that are stronger than others. Even WotC's articles have presented that there might be "kings" with castles and professional soldiers that patrol sections of the land - but they only "rule" as far as their soldiers patrol, meaning as far as normal everyday people feel safe to travel. In such a place, trade would be more frequent and specialty goods such as full plate armor would be possible. Those places are rare, though. Similarly, there are indeed areas where the darkness is an active threat - say, near a Dragon's lair. Again, though, those places are rare. Overall, though, both light and active threats to the light are sparse.

Another thing that occurs to me is another common mistake (which I've mentioned on ENWorld in another thread):

Points of Light is not a campaign setting. I repeat, it is not a campaign setting. By its very nature, you cannot have a "Points of Light campaign book". Points of Light is a campaign framework. It's designed such that there are no pre-set connections between anything presented in the rules. You can have the town of Thorn Hollow be in the middle of the Noonshadow Forest and beset by hordes of goblins and other dark fey creatures, and another DM can have the town of Thorn Hollow be on the edge of the Great Dune Sea, far from any other civilized presence and forgotten to time, eking out an existance farming cacti and using scorpion chitin for armor and weapons - and both DMs are correct. Both Thorn Hollows can exist as written wherever they found it, in the environments they find convenient, because there is little information about the surrounding areas in game. Points of Light is the USB of campaign worlds: plug and play.

 

[Zurai]

And also a lack of control over it. There is no order, no law and safety past the city gates. There is no persistent kingdom, no sovereignty. When you leave the city, you are at your own.

Excellent point. Thank you.

 

[HeavenShallBurn]

Again, people are having issues because they interpret "darkness" as "wilderness containing tons of big mean nasty things that will eat me as soon as I lose sight of the last house in town. Or maybe even before then."....That is not a correct interpretation. The darkness is a lack of knowledge of the outside world. Much as medieval maps contained huge blank holes in the heart of Africa and Asia with the legend "Here there be dragons". There are no dragons in this world, but people thought there were (or other terrible monsters eager to dine on wanderers) and only the brave few wandered into the unexplored.

Maybe said before but there is no CORRECT interpretation. Only personal preferences, POL does a wide spectrum along the Threat Axis and each of us tends to place the marker at a particular place.

Yes, he appears to have utterly missed my message and taken only what he wanted from it. Points of Light where the darkness is an active threat is untenable. Points of Light where the darkness is a passive threat is tenable and engaging.

Like I said it all depends on your taste. First you set the threshold for the normal threat level from which big threats spike. Then you adjust the composition of the settlements so that they can just BARELY sustain themselves against that normal threat level. It's the spikes that adventurers are there to deal with. In one style its maruading goblins, in another those are the normal threat level and the spike is a herd of gorgons or a pack of Tyrannosaurs. Everywhere along the range is tenable so long as you adjust the composition of the settlements appropriately, but there is no correct or incorrect way to do it.