D&D 4E Poll: 4E god stats
- Thread starter CleverNickName
- Start date
Pygon
First Post
I'm hoping the 4e epic game supports fighting gods. To me, it was one of the trademarks of 1e to get to high level and fight gods. Q1 supported it, H4 handed it out in droves (if you consider demon princes and dragon queens gods, that is), and Deities and Demigods teased it.
The part I always wrestle with is wondering how you actually trap a god long enough to kill them, because they always have the option of teleporting away.
The concept of knowing an aspect's stats without knowing the god's stats always bugged me heavily.
The part I always wrestle with is wondering how you actually trap a god long enough to kill them, because they always have the option of teleporting away.
The concept of knowing an aspect's stats without knowing the god's stats always bugged me heavily.
Wombat
First Post
My wishlist is an impossibility...
I would like to see gods that are more like the RealWorld counterparts -- messy, confused, overlapping, internally contradictory, etc.
Take Zeus by way of example. I'll leave alignment out of the picture (a massive headache), but simply take his portfolio.
He is a god of wind, storms, weather, lightning ... but if it is a storm at sea, this usually falls into Poseidon's hands ... but there are tales where he releases storms on ships. He is the king of the gods and thus the exemplar of how to rule ... yet he is constantly manipulated by his wife ... and his children ... and his multiple lovers ... and even some of the lesser gods. He is a randy little fellow, constantly looking for new lovers, constantly forgetting about the old ones, although willing to lend a hand to a child, especially a male child, later one. He is petty and vengeful, contravening his own laws at a whim, then suddenly feeling constrained by those very same laws.
There is a shrine to Zeus in Greece: Zeus, Who Drives Away Flies. Kinda hard to fit into a folio.
D&D gods are neat, organized, very slick, clean, shiny and modern. They fit modularly, neatly stacking with other gods. They cause no headaches. You hknow exactly what they should do, how they should act, that there parameters are.
D&D gods all have borders. Real deities have frontiers.
I would like to see gods that are more like the RealWorld counterparts -- messy, confused, overlapping, internally contradictory, etc.
Take Zeus by way of example. I'll leave alignment out of the picture (a massive headache), but simply take his portfolio.
He is a god of wind, storms, weather, lightning ... but if it is a storm at sea, this usually falls into Poseidon's hands ... but there are tales where he releases storms on ships. He is the king of the gods and thus the exemplar of how to rule ... yet he is constantly manipulated by his wife ... and his children ... and his multiple lovers ... and even some of the lesser gods. He is a randy little fellow, constantly looking for new lovers, constantly forgetting about the old ones, although willing to lend a hand to a child, especially a male child, later one. He is petty and vengeful, contravening his own laws at a whim, then suddenly feeling constrained by those very same laws.
There is a shrine to Zeus in Greece: Zeus, Who Drives Away Flies. Kinda hard to fit into a folio.
D&D gods are neat, organized, very slick, clean, shiny and modern. They fit modularly, neatly stacking with other gods. They cause no headaches. You hknow exactly what they should do, how they should act, that there parameters are.
D&D gods all have borders. Real deities have frontiers.
RPG_Tweaker
Explorer
Name
Alias'
Rank
Jurisdiction - I detest "portfolio" it's way too yuppy sounding.
Domains
Alignment [?] - I dislike pigeon-holing the inscrutable nature of gods.
Symbol(s)
Favored Weapon(s)
Mythology & Beliefs
Agents & Avatars - descriptions only, stats unnecessary
Worshippers & Clergy
Alias'
Rank
Jurisdiction - I detest "portfolio" it's way too yuppy sounding.
Domains
Alignment [?] - I dislike pigeon-holing the inscrutable nature of gods.
Symbol(s)
Favored Weapon(s)
Mythology & Beliefs
Agents & Avatars - descriptions only, stats unnecessary
Worshippers & Clergy
Wolv0rine
First Post
I'm all for stats for gods, because the common concept of what a god is oesn't fit with what ancient polytheistic gods were on the whole. Gods weren't generally All-Powerful Cosmic Beings Above All, incorporeal and effervescent with avatars and whatnot. Zeus was Zeus, Thor was Thor, Horus was Horus... and if for some reason you threw down with one of those guys, you weren't throwing down some safety-net shadow aspect avatar. You had THOR or HORUS or APOLLO or whoever to deal with buddy-boy, and you'd better have brought your A-Game.
And if you brought your A-Game, and your A-Game was good enough, you MIGHT just stand a chance. MIGHT, on a good day, if you're epically good, and if they don't cheat. And buddy, there's a good chance they'll cheat.
But they weren't YAHWEH, and thinking of them in the same conceptual terms just doesn't apply. Sure, in some odd instances there are small cameos of such gods acting as All-Powerful Omniscient Cosmic Entities, but they were fairly rare. More often Thor's out raising hell and drinking, and Zeus is banging someone's sister.
And that's why I like stats for gods.
That, and sometimes it's not a case of PCs wanting to fight gods. Sometimes, gods fight each other. Directly, physically, without the safety net of avatars or whatnot. And for those occasions stats are good, too.
And if you brought your A-Game, and your A-Game was good enough, you MIGHT just stand a chance. MIGHT, on a good day, if you're epically good, and if they don't cheat. And buddy, there's a good chance they'll cheat.
But they weren't YAHWEH, and thinking of them in the same conceptual terms just doesn't apply. Sure, in some odd instances there are small cameos of such gods acting as All-Powerful Omniscient Cosmic Entities, but they were fairly rare. More often Thor's out raising hell and drinking, and Zeus is banging someone's sister.
And that's why I like stats for gods.
That, and sometimes it's not a case of PCs wanting to fight gods. Sometimes, gods fight each other. Directly, physically, without the safety net of avatars or whatnot. And for those occasions stats are good, too.
delericho
Legend
IMO, they need to make a decision: are the Gods killable?
If they are, then they should be statted up in a manner compatible with their Epic level characters, at a challenge rating (or equivalent) just above the most powerful monsters they have.
If they are not, then they shouldn't stat the gods. Although the occasional campaign might have some use for those stats, those campaigns will very much be in the minority, and given the length and complexity of deity stat-blocks, therefore, they aren't worth the page-count.
Either way, they should vastly expand the write-ups of the 'peripheral' aspects of the god: avatars, aspects, churches... that sort of thing. I recommend looking at the "Core Beliefs" articles from Dragon for an example of what I consider the 'right' way of detailing the gods.
YMMV, of course.
Edit: Oh, yes, I forgot: I don't have a preference as to which was WotC go with this decision. I won't be using the core pantheon in any event.
If they are, then they should be statted up in a manner compatible with their Epic level characters, at a challenge rating (or equivalent) just above the most powerful monsters they have.
If they are not, then they shouldn't stat the gods. Although the occasional campaign might have some use for those stats, those campaigns will very much be in the minority, and given the length and complexity of deity stat-blocks, therefore, they aren't worth the page-count.
Either way, they should vastly expand the write-ups of the 'peripheral' aspects of the god: avatars, aspects, churches... that sort of thing. I recommend looking at the "Core Beliefs" articles from Dragon for an example of what I consider the 'right' way of detailing the gods.
YMMV, of course.
Edit: Oh, yes, I forgot: I don't have a preference as to which was WotC go with this decision. I won't be using the core pantheon in any event.
D&D Gods should have stats, for two reasons:
1) The idea of the divine as an abstract spirit is a relatively recent idea in human history. Early ideas assume both the existence of the Gods as personal beings and the physical existence of their bodies. For example, the Gods of Homer could engage in combat and be wounded. In Genesis, Yahweh Elohim had a voice, was able to walk in a garden, and looked like a person. In the belief of the Yoruba people of Africa, the Divine Powers have definite personalities, and need to be fed. Irish mythology (in the versions we have at least) assumes that the gods were physical beings with powerful magic. They could lose limbs, for instance.
2) Gods were first given stats in D&D (in the "Gods, Demi-gods and Heroes" supplement) partly as a way of pointing out the absurdity of ultra-high level characters with tons of magic items. The stats of the Gods could serve as a sort of "stop-sign": if the PCs are as powerful as the examples of the Gods, the characters are TOO powerful.
1) The idea of the divine as an abstract spirit is a relatively recent idea in human history. Early ideas assume both the existence of the Gods as personal beings and the physical existence of their bodies. For example, the Gods of Homer could engage in combat and be wounded. In Genesis, Yahweh Elohim had a voice, was able to walk in a garden, and looked like a person. In the belief of the Yoruba people of Africa, the Divine Powers have definite personalities, and need to be fed. Irish mythology (in the versions we have at least) assumes that the gods were physical beings with powerful magic. They could lose limbs, for instance.
2) Gods were first given stats in D&D (in the "Gods, Demi-gods and Heroes" supplement) partly as a way of pointing out the absurdity of ultra-high level characters with tons of magic items. The stats of the Gods could serve as a sort of "stop-sign": if the PCs are as powerful as the examples of the Gods, the characters are TOO powerful.
Sundragon2012
First Post
No statting of the gods!
I agree wholeheartedly.
What a gigantic waste of space filling a book with god stats when what really matters in a setting is how mortals and deities interact through the act of worship, divine spellcasting, rituals, holy days, teachings of the faiths, myths, etc.
Statting gods is the ULTIMATE way to remove all real awe and mystery from the gods.
It should be a setting by setting determination as to whether the gods can be killed by mortals however to waste the space of a core book which serves as an example to new players and DMs as to what D&D is supposed to be like is a mistake.
Gods should not be just another monster to kill by PCs. Gods represent the fundamental metaphysical assumptions of a setting, people like paladins and priests dedicate their lives to these beings. Regular folks rely on them for their afterlife and the eternal state of their souls (in most settings anyway). Killing these beings IMO is best left to myths or to plot devices of great importance.
Sundragon
RPG_Tweaker said:
I agree wholeheartedly.
What a gigantic waste of space filling a book with god stats when what really matters in a setting is how mortals and deities interact through the act of worship, divine spellcasting, rituals, holy days, teachings of the faiths, myths, etc.
Statting gods is the ULTIMATE way to remove all real awe and mystery from the gods.
It should be a setting by setting determination as to whether the gods can be killed by mortals however to waste the space of a core book which serves as an example to new players and DMs as to what D&D is supposed to be like is a mistake.
Gods should not be just another monster to kill by PCs. Gods represent the fundamental metaphysical assumptions of a setting, people like paladins and priests dedicate their lives to these beings. Regular folks rely on them for their afterlife and the eternal state of their souls (in most settings anyway). Killing these beings IMO is best left to myths or to plot devices of great importance.
Sundragon
shadow
First Post
I've stated this opinion before and I'll restate it here. I'm all in favor of stats for gods. With 4e including epic level material in the core, the gods need stats. This isn't uber-power gaming munchkinism, it's adding a mythic flavor to the setting. In many myths and legends, the heroes struggled against the gods (of course, often with disastrous results). Greek and Babylonian legends are rife with stories of gods making a frequent appearance. Many higher level D&D gamers may want to emulate those legends; it all depends on the play style. If you don't want stats for gods, don't use them.
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