D&D General Poll: How tough should 20th Level Fighters be? (MCU edition)

[Zubatcarteira]

I was trying to think of some Strength showings in modules, and one that comes to mind is from Storm King's Thunder:

On initiative count 15, a 40-foot-diameter sphere of solid granite phases out of the north wall at area 8C and rolls southward down the corridor. It rolls 200 feet on each of its turns until it reaches the end of the hall.

When the sphere reaches the south end of the hallway, the stone giant statue (area 8A) animates and uses its outstretched arms to stop the sphere before it slams into the wall around the alcove. Each round thereafter on initiative count 15, the statue moves 20 feet northward, rolling the sphere ahead of it. The statue and sphere move slowly enough that creatures can easily get out of the way. When the statue reaches the north end of the hallway, it pushes the sphere back into the wall (the sphere melds with the stone as it comes into contact with it).

A 40 foot diameter granite boulder ought to be heavy as hell, with 20 feet radius, the sphere should have 33510 cubic feet of volume, Google says density of granite is around 75 kg per cubic foot, so it should weight about 2,513 tons. Get rekt, Hulk.

 

[Cadence]

Is Spidey only in the 10 ton range? (Or is that just the comics -- granted stories have strength vary by a factor of 10 as the plot demands).

 

[Vaalingrade]

Is Spidey only in the 10 ton range? (Or is that just the comics -- granted stories have strength vary by a factor of 10 as the plot demands).

Homecoming has him lifting a warehouse fascade + floating pod as well as holding two halves of a ferry together from tipping into the water, which have to be more than 10 tons.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

More reasons to see Thor as a 20th level fighter: without a magic weapon, he's badass but still subject to being beaten down by a horde of mooks. In Thor 1, he's grappled by orderlies (who aren't high CR guys), which makes sense: it took four of them, and even if he's got a +11 athletics to their +5, they're being helped and have to try a few times before they finally get him. They only need to win the opposed roll once. He then fails a con save vs sedative (unlucky on his part, because Indomitable gives him a couple tries) but once he's asleep he's down.

Later on we see him fully healed but unequipped vs a SHIELD Strike team (CR 5 or so each) - no one's trying to kill anyone but Thor is able to get through them without getting dropped, although he does need to work at it and is tired by the time he gets to Mjollnir (low hp) - and it's heavily implied that Hawkeye (level 20 ranger with a minor magic bow) could have taken him out - pretty easily at that point.

With Mjollnir (a legendary magic weapon at least), he's a threat to pretty much anyone, although there's a number of people who can still take him.

Now, I'm not 100% sure Thor is a fighter per se; he's got some barbarian-y traits, but maybe he's a custom subclass.

I think Thor is a Paladin, but also he’s been deleveled severely in the first film, and definitely isn’t level 20 even when fully powered. He gets his capstone stuff between Ragnarok and Endgame.

 

[Maxperson]

Can we extrapolate the +10 000 bonus for to hit and damage!?

No! Bonuses don't start until 12, so you only get +9,995.

 

[Stormonu]

I mean how many HP a skyscraper sized space alien invasion craft has? Thor annihilates it in one round. He gotta have a pretty decent damage bonus!

This is what I don't get why people say they want high level fighters or barbarian to be like Thor and Hulk. Do you actually want these characters to be able to utterly level a gigantic caste in one round? Because that's what it means to be as powerful as Thor.

Not as an at-will ability, but being able to wreck at least one opponent like that per combat isn't too much to ask. I mean, you don't see Thor and Hulk do that to every one of those whalecraft on a whim; you can sort of see the effort/toll/circumstance it takes them to build up to do that sort of destruction, as a sort of once-per-day/once-per-encounter kind of thing.

But once you start getting int per-combat or per-day abilities to the fighter, you start running into claims that its just a wizard by another name - even if it isn't.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I definitely think the 5e fighter could use a high level boost, but it also depends on the DM. The thing is, some DMs just aren’t that open to shenanigans, and that hurts the fighter and rogue more than anyone else.

 

[Krachek]

I'm just trying to figure out what people actually mean.

And I'm fine with some superheroics, there just is rather massive scale differences there. Thor is way more powerful compared to Captain America than Captain America is compared to a normal human.

And in MCU it fits perfectly. Cap is an avenger as much important as Thor.
But if you have such difference between two PCs, the whims would be heard km around.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Everyone putting Hawkeye as a Ranger rather than a rogue with a fighter dip or a feat to get archery fighting style is why I say there should be an archer class.

Because he absolutely is not a Ranger in any way.

 

[Cadence]

And in MCU it fits perfectly. Cap is an avenger as much important as Thor.
But if you have such difference between two PCs, the whims would be heard km around.

One could argue that Cap is even more important given how he holds the team together as a leader and how often (in the decades of comics) Thor is off for huge stretches of time doing Asgard stuff. How do you say "God from off-panel" in Latin?

On the other hand, arguing importance is kind of odd for some things. What US military division is more important, the infantry/armored or the folks running the nuclear missiles? Are they equal because we'd be in trouble if either one is gone?