D&D General Poll: How tough should 20th Level Fighters be? (MCU edition)

[Gammadoodler]

But they are like Thor and Hulk. High level PCs are basically the Avengers. Flying or teleporting around everywhere, wielding potent artifacts, going toe to toe with literal Gods, Kaiju and Demon Lords (and winning) and dealing with threats to all of existence.

At 5th level, they're at Netflix Defenders levels of power. But at 17th+? They're literally fighting Gods and winning.

I mean a mid (11th) level Fighter, can easily take down a T-Rex, or half a dozen Grizzlies even without Magical gear (Caps Shield, Thors Hammer), and on his own. He can reliably fall from a skyscraper and walk away. He can load, aim and fire a Crossbow at such speed and accuracy he can reliably hit six bullseyes at 300' inside of 6 seconds, while moving 30' from where he started. That's already bordering on supernatural.

At high level he can go toe to toe with a Balrog, and win. Demon Lords have heard of his name and are wary of him.

The greatest warriors of Human history such as Musashi, Bruce Lee, Kosta Tszu, Mohammed Ali, Audie Murphy, Leonidas or Simo Häyhä (and even most Mythical Heroes such as Achilles) cant come close to those levels of power or emulating those feats.

And the extent of the technology needed to impede their progress is...any one of

Conventional masonry or other physical obstructions, distance, or verticality. Things neither the Hulk nor Thor care about in any meaningful way, and..basically the same technology used to impede their progress at level 1.

Edit: Outside of hp, how different are the actual capabilities of the. level 5, level 11, and high level characters we're talking about?

Edit2: or for another method of comparison.. if you had to take out the high level characters, using some quantity of level 5 or level 11 characters, how many of each would you need. Is there any circumstance where you'd need more than 50? Sure..they can fight gods, but a school bus full of dudes with 5% (or so) of their experience can take them out.

 

[Gammadoodler]

Double post

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

Yep. There is no way to reconcile both 'Thor' and 'Iron Man' as Fighter. Simply wont happen.

Anyone wanting to play 'Thor' wants to be a Caster/Melee, that by 20, is well, a god.

The game cannot be built to support that, being the same class as a 'mortal man in a metal suit.' It just doesnt work, especially in a system as loose as 5e.

Thor isn't a caster. He can generate lightning as a supernatural ability, has elec invulnerability, has super stats, and a magic hammer that lets him fly (ie, actually use melee at high levels). At will lightning bolt is totally fine as a high level fighter ability when you compare the opportunity cost vs making 4 attacks. He should be the baseline for a 17th level fighter. He's on par with someone who can cast wish daily with no risk.

Casters produce a wide variety of effects in D&D (too wide IMO). One magical ability doesn't make you a caster. Monks produce supernatural effects with Ki.

 

[Scribe]

He should be the baseline for a 17th level fighter.

I'll never agree with this.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

I'll never agree with this.

Considering that Thor can demolish a scyscraper in one round and tank a neutron star, yeah...

 

[Flamestrike]

And the extent of the technology needed to impede their progress is...any one of

Conventional masonry or other physical obstructions, distance, or verticality. Things neither the Hulk nor Thor care about in any meaningful way, and..basically the same technology used to impede their progress at level 1.

Thor Odinson, Storm Herald Barbarian 20
S 28 D 14 C 24 I 10 W 12 Ch 14
Move: 40', HP: 285, AC: 20
Feats: GWM, Tavern Brawler
Gear: Hammer of Thunderbolts (Maul), Belt of Giant Strength (worn, not attuned), Gauntlets of Ogre Power (worn, not attuned), +3 Half Plate, Ring of Air elemental command.

Not unreasonable for a 20th level PC, and he has items that are roughly on par with the MCU version.

He's flying, throwing lightning around, hurling his hammer, and is quite literally stronger than a Balor, and cant roll less than 28 on a Strength Ability check.

As for masonry, a 10' x 10' Stone wall has an AC of 17 and 27 HP

Roll20

Mr Odinson deals a minimum of 26 points of damage per swing thanks to GWM (at +11, with advantage). Heck, he could punch the thing down in 2 punches.

On his turn he walks (or flies) to the wall, smashes it down, keeps going, and clobbers the thing on the other side.

Edit: Outside of hp, how different are the actual capabilities of the. level 5, level 11, and high level characters we're talking about?

Exponentially more capable. An Ogre would be a tough fight for Thor at 1st level.

At 20th level, he could destroy 20 Ogres without breaking a sweat.

 

[Flamestrike]

Note; I'm not saying he's the same power as MCU Thor. I am just pointing out that he fills the same role, and is largely indistinguishable from MCU Thor in game play, and likely from the POV of NPCs in the game world.

He's also fought beings like Surtur, and won.

 

[Flamestrike]

Thor isn't a caster. He can generate lightning as a supernatural ability, has elec invulnerability, has super stats, and a magic hammer that lets him fly (ie, actually use melee at high levels). At will lightning bolt is totally fine as a high level fighter ability when you compare the opportunity cost vs making 4 attacks.

Storm Herald Barbarians toss out lighting at will, and are resistant to it. They're also super strong. With roughly equal to Thors gear (a Hammer of Thunderbolts, that lets him fly) they have Strength scores of 28 at 20th level.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Thor Odinson, Storm Herald Barbarian 20
S 28 D 14 C 24 I 10 W 12 Ch 14
Move: 40', HP: 285, AC: 20
Feats: GWM, Tavern Brawler
Gear: Hammer of Thunderbolts (Maul), Belt of Giant Strength (worn, not attuned), Gauntlets of Ogre Power (worn, not attuned), +3 Half Plate, Ring of Air elemental command.

Not unreasonable for a 20th level PC, and he has items that are roughly on par with the MCU version.

He's flying, throwing lightning around, hurling his hammer, and is quite literally stronger than a Balor, and cant roll less than 28 on a Strength Ability check.

As for masonry, a 10' x 10' Stone wall has an AC of 17 and 27 HP

Roll20

Mr Odinson deals a minimum of 26 points of damage per swing thanks to GWM (at +11, with advantage). Heck, he could punch the thing down in 2 punches.

On his turn he walks (or flies) to the wall, smashes it down, keeps going, and clobbers the thing on the other side.



Exponentially more capable. An Ogre would be a tough fight for Thor at 1st level.

At 20th level, he could destroy 20 Ogres without breaking a sweat.

And this character cannot demolish a skyscraper in one turn, tank a neuron star or throw a truck.

When people say they want the fighter to be like Thor, I assume they actually mean the power level of Thor, not some massively downpowered version with vaguely similar abilities. That character is a lot weaker than even Spider-Man.

Note; I'm not saying he's the same power as MCU Thor. I am just pointing out that he fills the same role, and is largely indistinguishable from MCU Thor in game play, and likely from the POV of NPCs in the game world.

Right. And that makes the poll worthless, as people are not actually answering the same question.

 

[Vaalingrade]

And this character cannot demolish a skyscraper in one turn, tank a neuron star or throw a truck.

Yes. This is the problem: that the fighter can't even do the least of these things.

If at 20th level, you can't even consider kobolds to be ranged thrown weapons, let alone Toyotas and ogres, that's sad.