POLL: Would you play D&D without a Skill System?

[FireLance]

Those are still skills.

I would tend to consider these class abilities, since you could only obtain them by being a member of the right class.

 

[BryonD]

Wow. Both of you guys like simultaneously discovered that some people are too immature to be able to handle role playing games. That's totally uncanny.

Steve's example may be over the top.
But it hits a hell of a lot closer to reality then your attempt to paint pro-skills gamers as immature did.

 

[FireLance]

So how do you decide if that works or not? Abitrary decisions? "Rolling under the ability score" which when the attributes are maxed is a auto success?

Yes, in the absence of a comprehensive skill system, the DM would just have to wing it. Presumably, he would break the entire process down to a number of random rolls, assign a chance of success for the PC at each stage, and either roll the dice himself or get the player to roll if the PC has a chance of influencing the outcome.

For example, the DM may decide that there is a 20% chance that the lord has a distant relative who is not attending the ball in the first place, secretly make the roll, and ask for an Intelligence check from the player to determine if he manages to discover that piece of information. If the PC has followers, or if he had previously built up a network of contacts, informants and spies, the DM might give him an advantage, and so on.

DM adjudication is one way of resolving non-combat tasks, but as previously mentioned, a skill system is likely to be more transparent and consistent, and require less work on the part of the DM.

 

[Aus_Snow]

A skill system is necessary for serious roleplay.

That .... is incorrect.

'Serious roleplay' can (and does) occur without a RPG system, and therefore (needless to say) without one component native only to particular RPG systems.

That's without even getting to some of the better skill-less systems out there. . .

So how do you decide if that works or not? Abitrary decisions? "Rolling under the ability score" which when the attributes are maxed is a auto success?

Sure, or something else. 'Whatever works' is a good guiding principle.

 

[Piratecat]

Wow. Both of you guys like simultaneously discovered that some people are too immature to be able to handle role playing games. That's totally uncanny.

Yes, clearly if your players are developmentally 8 year olds and/or your DM is a complete toolbox, your role playing game is going to suck. Next issue.

Insulting people is against the rules. Don't do it.

 

[fusangite]

My question then is this: would you play D&D without a Skill System?

I played D&D without a skill system from 1981 to 1985; so that would be a YES by definition. At Gen Con 2005, I played Expert D&D with Korgoth with no skill system. At Gen Con 2006, I ran a Gamma World game with no skill system. And at Gen Con '07 I played in diaglo's OD&D game with no skill system. All of these games were good fun.

Has your expectation become such that you would expect D&D (and most RPGs) to possess one?

Yep. But the term "skills system" may be too broad to really get anything meaningful out of it. Games like Dogs in the Vineyard, for instance, have a "skills system" but no two entities in the game have the same skill. This seems pretty radically different from D&D's skills.

 

[MrFilthyIke]

I could play D&D either way.

I prefer skills, but can do without.

 

[BryonD]

Yep. But the term "skills system" may be too broad to really get anything meaningful out of it. Games like Dogs in the Vineyard, for instance, have a "skills system" but no two entities in the game have the same skill. This seems pretty radically different from D&D's skills.

There is a difference between "has a skill system" and requiring a specific definition of that skill system. Though radically different, DinV and 3X both are "yes" and OD&D is still "no".


I used to play older "without" games. So my first reflex was to vote either "miss it" or "improvise". But it quickly dawned on me that I would simply play 3X. So I went with no.

 

[Severion]

As a bit of an oldschooler i can say that i have played w/o a skill system. But with 3e i have come to like the idea of one. Recently i ran a Moldvay basic game and i kinda missed it, if i run another one i plan to tack on the skill system from HackMaster. It has an old school feel, and if a player doesn't want to deel with it, it shouldn't hurt him. It's also not level dependant, wich i think is a weakness of the current system.

 

[T. Foster]

So how do you decide if that works or not? Abitrary decisions? "Rolling under the ability score" which when the attributes are maxed is a auto success?

Role-playing, augmented by ad-hoc dice rolls (based on my judgment of the likely chance of success, modified by the character's stats, the player's described actions, and the vagaries of the specific situation) at key junctures:

After I make sure that the distant relative of the lord can't attend the ball
die roll: say flat 50% chance (or some other number, at the DM's discretion, depending on the specifics of the situation) of findng such a relative

I forge an invitation to it and pose as him.
judgment call/die roll: base his chance of success on the previously-demonstrated background and MO of the character -- if he's previously been played in a way that would suggest this was within his skillset he can do it, otherwise he can't

With the mask I will be wearing no one will recognize me as they haven't seen that relative in years.
die roll: each person he talks to at the party has a chance to recognize him as an imposter -- the chance varied person to person, from very small (1%, or even no chance) to significant (perhaps 1 in 4 or 2 in 6), how well the player roleplays can affect these rolls

To make the disguise more convincing I will higher a local harlot to pose as my concubine.
When I am in I will mingle with the rest of the guest for a while (note, keep on eye on the harlot).
roleplay this out -- depending on the character's background, probably assume that he knows where and how to hire a harlot, otherwise that's another step of roleplaying

I made a little research about the country the relative lives in so I probably can answer basic questions if someone asks. If not I'll make something up, those people won't listen anyway.
assume the character is able to acquire basic info (unless there's some reason why this info wouldn't be easily obtained, then make an ad-hoc die roll as appropriate); beyond that, roleplay this out -- if the player plays it well he'll succeed, if not people will become increasingly suspicious

After a while I will talk with the lord (note make it so that it would embarras him when he doesn't talk to me) and after a little small talk admire his wealth and hope that he tells me where the real treasure is kept.
roleplay this out -- as above

After that order a lot of wine ovwer the evening (pour it into some plant) and pose as drunk and drag the harlot to a hidden place.
roleplay this out -- as above

There knock her out and tie her up. Can't let her wander around unattended.
combat to knock the harlot out; if that's successful we'll assume he knows how to tie her up

Then loot the lords room any any other rooms which can be reached safely
die roll: chance of being caught in the act -- player precautions will affect this roll, as will how suspicious the other party-guests are of the character (as determined by the DM above)

(note, check if the lord keeps the keys with him at the ball and snatch it if possible).
die roll: ad-hoc determination depending on the specifics of the situation (is the lord drunk? how friendly has he become to the character? etc.), and the characters' stats and background

After that go to the kitchen, drop the loot into the waste and leave. The next day go through the waste and retrieve the loot.
die roll: chance of being caught in the act, or that someone else discovered the loot -- player precautions and NPC suspicion can affect this roll as above

The only places I can see where a skill system would even really be applicable are preparing the forged document, researching info about the relative and his country, and snatching the keys from the lord, and even in those cases I prefer the looseness of not having a specifically pre-defined skill set because it allows the player more wiggle-room: if you're playing a game where Forgery, Gather Information, and Pick Pockets are defined skills and the character in question doesn't have those skills, then he can't perform those activities (depending on the game system, an untrained character might have a small default chance), but in a more freeform, negotiation-based game, anything can happen. Skill systems in rpgs are inherently limiting, defining what a character can't do as much or moreso than what he can. In some styles and genres of games that's appropriate (I tend to prefer defined skills in modern or futuristic settings and non-heroic games) but in others it may not be.