Poly'ing into Dragon: what age category?

[azhrei_fje]

The recent thread on how the FAQ has clarified (!) the polymorph family of spells has prompted me to ask a related question:

When a 7th level mage wants to polymorph into a black dragon, can he?

Specifically, I'm thinking about the requirement that the spell only allows the spellcaster to change his form into what is normal for the new form:

You can freely designate the new form’s minor physical qualities (such as hair color, hair texture, and skin color) within the normal ranges for a creature of that kind. The new form’s significant physical qualities (such as height, weight, and gender) are also under your control, but they must fall within the norms for the new form’s kind. You are effectively disguised as an average member of the new form’s race.

My thinking is that the entries in the Monster Manuals presuppose that those entries describe typical adult specimens of the particular race. First question: can we assume that MM entries refer to "adult" versions, unless the MM entry says otherwise?

If so, then the only form that can be assumed by the polymorph spells is the adult form, since that is the average member as described in the MM. Second question: because the adult Black Dragon is 20HD, can the spellcaster in question change into a Black Dragon?

The text of alter self (which is not modified by the spell description of polymorph) says that the spellcaster can control minor physical qualities. Third question: is the age category of a dragon a "minor physical quality" such that the spellcaster can specify that they want to turn into a juvenile Black Dragon instead of an adult (as juveniles are 14HD)?

If one assumes that the game requires the adult form to be the only available option for a given MM entry, then:
can a creature be devolved (??) to a lower HD creature (instead of being advanced) in order to create a form which is within the acceptable HD limits?

Comments?

 

[dcollins]

I assume that "picking a form" for a dragon includes picking the color & age.

 

[MatthewJHanson]

I think "average" means that a 15th level wizard can't choose to be a juvenile black dragon who has advanced to 15 hit die, but a standard juvenile dragon is just fine.

Though remember that the monster's HD is limited by your caster level, so at best a 7th level wizard could be a Very Young black dragon.

 

[interwyrm]

Technically then, I suppose it should let a person alter self or polymorph into a character of old, or venerable or whatever age category for pc races as well. Bit silly though as you'd only be taking penalties.

 

[svwilson]

Here's my take on it:

The Monster Manual describes a typical mature (adult) version of most creatures. This is what you become when you polymorph; if you want to be a stone giant, you're usually turning into an adult (12HD) stone giant. If you could only turn into 6HD creatures, and your GM is kind, he may let you become an stone giant child and modify all his attributes accordingly.

Dragons are different, and have a wide variety of age categories, because even at their weakest they are viable opponents; that's why there are separate statistics for each age range. As far as polymorph goes (or any spell that depends on the target's Hit Dice), a very young black dragon is a 8HD creature, and an adult is a 20 HD creature, and that's your limit.

 

[The Edge]

This is where the shapechange spell becomes very nice.

hmm...doesn't shapechange allow extraondinary an Supernatural abilitys? So includeing the dragons alternate form?

 

[TheGogmagog]

I'm not sure I understand your question. At 7th level you can plolymorph into a Very Young (Small) 7HD Black Dragon. At max 15th level you can become a Juvenile (Medium) Black Dragon. You will note that Dragon's don't come up often as ideal forms for polymorph, because they arn't that impressive. Especially now the FAQ supports advanced creatures take a look at the Wyvern. It doesn't look like much but advance it to 15 HD and you have a real monster, because of two size category changes from Medium to Huge. +16 str ,+8 con, natural weapon damage increases twice, reach with the bite becomes 20', DC of the poision scales well, and more. You will need some concealment (Greater Invisibility, displacement, mirror image) with that AC though.

Along with the support of advanced creatures you could argue for regressed or child versions of monsters. That would require working up the advancement with approval of your DM. I would guess that a 7HD Stone Giant would be medium size (if not small), and therefore lose 8 str from size and 2 from regressing past 12th and 8th levels. That 17 Str isn't as impressive.

Edit: Ah, I see where you lost me. The first question the answer is no. If there is a monster manual entry it's considered typical of the race. So there are typical Young Dragons and typical Juvenile dragons, you may choose either. This has always been the most popular option, because it doesn't require the work to advance or devolve the creature. The New FAQ acknowleges this and points out doing the work ahead of time (and I'd add get it checked and approved by the DM). This would then require DM decision, so the FAQ doesn't 'force' the DM to allow advanced or devolved creatures.

Personally, I've never liked the idea that if there is a monster manual entry that it's 'typical' of the race because of things like the Troll Hunter, it's a troll with class levels. It's there to demonstrate an example of a troll with class levels. I wouldn't allow a player take the form of a Troll Monk any faster than I would allow a player to take the form of a Human Wizard/Elemental Savant. But since the Troll Hunter (Ranger IIRC) has a MM entry it's fair game in most campaigns. Same goes for the Dire Template, many games allow the forms that have MM entries even though it's a template and banned by the text of Alter self.

 

[TheGogmagog]

This is where the shapechange spell becomes very nice.

hmm...doesn't shapechange allow extraondinary an Supernatural abilitys? So includeing the dragons alternate form?

Even at 25th level, You will get the form of a CR18 Huge Dragon. It's alright in some circumstances, but won't send a significant foe at 25th level fleeing.

Yes, the Gold (8 HD) Bronze (12 HD) and Silver (7HD) dragons gain Alternate form, which can be used throught the shapechange spell.

 

[glass]

Yes, the Gold (8 HD) Bronze (12 HD) and Silver (7HD) dragons gain Alternate form, which can be used throught the shapechange spell.

Isn't alternate form a little redundant if you are under shapechange?


glass.

 

[ken-ichi]

Dire is not a template in the MM. So a dire animal is definitely a valid choice, think of it as a different breed. Like you have orangatangs, gorrilas, and dire apes. Or black bears, brown bears, kodiaks, polar bears, and dire bears.