polymorph and enlarge...how big?

[Cephid]

How big exactly can a medium sized creature get with poly and enlarge?
Can I poly first into a large creature (e.g. troll), then enlarge into huge troll?

Can I enlarge first to large size, then poly into a huge creature?

thanks for your help.

 

[Legildur]

In short. No. But that would have made your troll-monk very nasty indeed.

With Polymorph "the subject's creature type and subtype (if any) change to match the new form..".

Enlarge Person only works on 'humanoid creatures'. Trolls are 'giants'.

However, there has been recent errata of Polymorph/Wildshaping etc and I'm not up to speed on that as my group hasn't adopted it yet. So the, answer if you include the errata, could be different.

 

[Cephid]

I suppose the next questions are:
- are there any larged sized humanoids? (to polymorph into which will then stack with enlarge)

- does the psycic worrior ability 'expansion' stack with a polymorphed form? Does it stack with enlarge?

- What happens when a creature with 'powerful build' is expanded and/or enlarged?

Does anyone know of this "recent errata"?

Thanks for your help.

 

[mvincent]

I suppose the next questions are:
- are there any larged sized humanoids? (to polymorph into which will then stack with enlarge)

I believe a were-bear's hybrid form is an enlargeable humanoid, but you can't polymorph into it.

- does the psycic worrior ability 'expansion' stack with a polymorphed form?

Subject to interpretation.

Does it stack with enlarge?

No. Per the rules "Multiple effects that increase size do not stack"

- What happens when a creature with 'powerful build' is expanded and/or enlarged?.

The Powerful build abilities would stack.

Does anyone know of this "recent errata"?.

Read here. Also the Rules of the game has some recent articles about it.

 

[Deset Gled]

Read here. Also the Rules of the game has some recent articles about it.

I would highly recommend NOT using the RotG if you want to know how Polymorph works with the new errata. Its just plain wrong on many points.

 

[Hypersmurf]

With Polymorph "the subject's creature type and subtype (if any) change to match the new form..".

Enlarge Person only works on 'humanoid creatures'. Trolls are 'giants'.

Note that he's casting Enlarge Person on a humanoid, and then changing his type.

This is valid. If I cast Hold Person on you, you are a legal target for the spell, because you're a humanoid. If your type subsequently changes - to Animal, say - you are an Animal who is under the effects of a Hold Person spell. The spell doesn't check your type again once it's already come into effect.

(Aside from the fact that any other interpretation makes the Shillelagh spell nonsensical, it's also the answer given by the 3.5 Main FAQ, for what it's worth.)

-Hyp.

 

[IcyCool]

- does the psycic worrior ability 'expansion' stack with a polymorphed form?

Yes, although some people believe that polymorphing into a brown bear (large size) means that you have increased size, and as such wouldn't be allowed via the "multiple effects that increase size do not stack" bit.

Does it stack with enlarge?

No, expansion does not stack with enlarge, via the "multiple effects that increase size do not stack" rule.

- What happens when a creature with 'powerful build' is expanded and/or enlarged?

The powerful build ability is unchanged, you just use the new size. i.e., they can use weapons sized for a creature one size larger than them without penalty (so a powerful build creature expanded to large size would be able to use weapons sized for a huge creature).

 

[mvincent]

I would highly recommend NOT using the RotG if you want to know how Polymorph works with the new errata. Its just plain wrong on many points.

Could you note some? Note that the new RotG articles were specifically designed to cover the new errata. While I have not fully read either (I just house-rule polymorph in general), discrepancies should probably be specifically noted (and then a new thread started, and then any discrepancies called to WotC's attention).

Not that I have any personal investment here, but actual facts would be preferable to taking such statements on good faith.

 

[mvincent]

Note that he's casting Enlarge Person on a humanoid, and then changing his type.

I agree, but there is also the issues of:
1) Something that changes your form (polymorph) may override a previous spell that changes your form (enlarge), making it moot.
2) The description of enlarge saying "Multiple magical effects that increase size do not stack"

These are both also subject to interpretation, but seem like valid issues.

other interpretation makes the Shillelagh spell nonsensical.

Can you elaborate?

it's also the answer given by the 3.5 Main FAQ, for what it's worth.

I agree, but can you quote it for reference?

 

[Infiniti2000]

(Re: shillelagh) Can you elaborate?

Shillelagh's Target is "One touched nonmagical oak club or quarterstaff." But, the spell itself transmutes the target into a magical weapon. If the Target were checked again, the spell would be invalid. Once the spell is invalid, it no longer makes the weapon magical and then becomes valid again, which . . . now you can see how nonsensical it would be.