D&D 5E Polymorph Scenario

[FesterJester]

I've always been under the theory that a fun and memorable solution to tough DM questions trumps believable and rules based. Thus, provided this wasn't the big boss fight, I'd give them the most satisfying outcome I can come up with. PW1 eats its way out, explodes its way out, is contained and digested (as recommended above) etc. If its the final boss fight I might adjudicate differently, but award the creativity non-the less.

Scenario #2 I'd simply have him trapped. Idk any player who wouldn't be able to find a way to kill a trapped monster in a impenetrable movable cage. Probably do a bit of damage just, but it depends on the tables expectations.

 

[clearstream]

The PCs are heroes. We're telling their heroic story...

I feel it's all about the players feeling like they are the main focus of the story.

Paradoxically (because there are heroic fantasy tropes I like to adhere to) I don't think about my campaign that way. Rather I envision that the players and I are telling the story of a shared world. They're part of that world - maybe sometimes heroes - but they're not the only part, nor the only heroes.

Accordingly, I make rulings that I believe to be consistent with the world. Takes 30 damage and is automatically regurgitated sounds right for the first case. Shunted into a nearby square, or prevented from returning to its full shape until the Sphere spell ends, sounds right for the second. A useful lense to look at questions like this is also to envision how you will rule if the tables turn: an NPC uses Polymorph shenanigans on a PC?

 

[Blue]

I envision Polymorph causing a target to dissappear with a "BAMF" and instantly reappear in its new form, much like how stage magicians might transmute eggs into doves. Others might imagine the target melting into protoplasmic goop and reforming into the new shape, or even transitioning from one shape to another like in a Michael Jackson music video; the spell certainly leaves the nuts and bolts of the transformation up to the imagination of the reader.

The only issue with the resilient sphere (or any other enclosed space) is that two objects cannot occupy the exact same space. I resolve that by having the spell shunt the target's reappearance in its original form to the nearest available space.

Let me flip this around. My character has entrapped a foe in an Otiluke's Resilient Sphere. The spell says: "Nothing - not physical objects, energy, or other spell effects - can pass through the barrier, in or out, though a creature in the sphere can breathe there."

At your table, the foe can escape from the Sphere by polymorphing into something larger then the sphere, because that's a "BAMF" and they would be shunted outside because they no longer fit and you like simple solutions.

Okay, it's your table. To me, it's an undocumented side effect judgement call on one spell compared to the explicit written rules of another spell. If this came up for the first time in the scenario above, I'd probably consider it adversarial DMing.

If you still have issues with this, we can set up a time to talk about it after you roll your character for my campaign.

You do realize that you're posting on a forum where we are supposed to discuss the game. Flagging off people from responding so you can have the last word lacks grace.

 

[Sunseeker]

Depends on how the DM wants to run it I suppose. It's either going to be hilariously explosive or the new Purple Wurm is just going to cough up the former Purple Wurm and the party will have two angry and unharmed Purple Wurms to fight.

I think I would personally try to split the difference. Purple Wurm B would start coughing up Purple Wurm A, giving the party time to retreat. (I would narrate it as: Purple Wurm B seems to be in the process of regurgitating something rather large!) Purple Wurm B would then cough up Purple Wurm A, both would suffer a little damage (from the choking and being choked on) and then return their attentions to the party.

 

[clearstream]

Let me flip this around. My character has entrapped a foe in an Otiluke's Resilient Sphere. The spell says: "Nothing - not physical objects, energy, or other spell effects - can pass through the barrier, in or out, though a creature in the sphere can breathe there."

At your table, the foe can escape from the Sphere by polymorphing into something larger then the sphere, because that's a "BAMF" and they would be shunted outside because they no longer fit and you like simple solutions.

Okay, it's your table. To me, it's an undocumented side effect judgement call on one spell compared to the explicit written rules of another spell.

It's true that the BAMF is a bit arbitrary. Let's look harder at the RAW.

Per RAW, there's nothing to say the spell does harm to a creature that it encloses. The RAW only says that it can't enclose a creature bigger than large, and that damage can't cross its boundary. It also reads "The sphere is weightless and just large enough to contain the creature or object inside."

I think the ruling most compliant with the RAW is that the Worm takes zero damage, and the sphere becomes just large enough to contain it. The Polymorph shenanigans turns out to be a means to get around the "creature or object of Large size or smaller" stipulation.

RAW similarly covers the Purple Worm swallowing scenario. Per RAW, the worm has use an action to bite a thing first, before it can swallow it. The characters could plop down the morphed creature hoping the worm will eat it, but the worm likely uses its turn to go for them first seeing as they are threats.

Reading that back, I think the RAW actually is pretty clear on what happens here. It's player over-indulgence that is the issue

 

[Blue]

Reading that back, I think the RAW actually is pretty clear on what happens here. It's player over-indulgence that is the issue

If allowing player creativity and impromptu actions with a natural 20 is considered "over-indulgence", I'm not sure I'd want to play at that table. Having a live DM that can adjudicate is what makes tabletop games different than video games.

 

[clearstream]

If allowing player creativity and impromptu actions with a natural 20 is considered "over-indulgence", I'm not sure I'd want to play at that table. Having a live DM that can adjudicate is what makes tabletop games different than video games.

The DM decides not just the difficulty, but if a roll is allowed in the first place. Natural 20 has nothing to do with it: there are no automatic successes on ability checks, and just because a player asks to make a check to do something doesn't mean that thing can be done.

Having a live DM includes having someone who creates constraints that challenge the players. Using Polymorph that way doesn't sound challenging, it sounds like trivialising the encounter and creating problems for the future.

The reason I'm being so "adversarial" of course is to dig in my heels, make it clear that the DM is there to have fun too, and that the experience is shared: not one of entitled players and servant DMs. That attitude rubs me up the wrong way.

 

[Sunseeker]

If allowing player creativity and impromptu actions with a natural 20 is considered "over-indulgence", I'm not sure I'd want to play at that table. Having a live DM that can adjudicate is what makes tabletop games different than video games.

I often have to throw the brakes on my players because they can't keep their hands off rolling the die.

While I encourage players to declare their own actions, I demand that they slow the heck down.

Ideally the situation should resolve as follows (and keep in mind I'd adding a bit to flesh out the scenario):
PC1: I cast polymorph on the Purple Wurm.
DM: Okay. *Rolls* It fails, but you hear a rumbling coming from the ground beneath you, make a Dex save.
PC1: Okay. *rolls* 16.
DM: You dodge quickly off to the side as another Purple Wurm bores up from the ground!
PC2: Seriously?
PC1: I grab the little frog that I just polymorphed the first one into.
DM: Make a Dex check. It's small and scared and hopping around like crazy.
PC1: *rolls* 18!
DM: Good, you catch it.
PC1: Okay then I toss it down the gullet of the second Purple Wurm!
DM: *raises eyebrow* Okay, make Dex check.
PC1: *rolls* Nat 20!
DM: *adjudicates results*

It's a bit lengthy, and ignores the fact that the second Purple Wurm probably should have acted at least once and the rest of the party should have probably acted 3 or 4 times, but everyone involved is taking their turn, noone is declaring that things just *happen* because they rolled a 20. That's the DM's job to declare what happens. It's the DM's job to declare how it happens. Players are often quick to think a Nat 20 means they win at whatever they want to do, regardless of what the DM says. This is not the case. The DM is always the final arbiter on what specifically happens.

What happens sometimes is the following:
PC1: I cast polymorph on the Purple Wurm!
DM: Okay it failed, but another wurm shows up shortly after.
PC1: *rolls* Nat 20! I grab the frog that was oncethepurplewurmanddowadoublebackflipandthrowitdownthesecondwurmsgulletthenIstopconcentrationonthespellanditimmediatelyreturnstonormalandbothwurmsgoSPOLDEBOOM!!!YEAHNAT20!!!

Declare then roll. Better yet, declare then wait for the DM to call for a roll. I mean, for all you know, no roll may be required! If a player jumps the gun, I have been known to simply add effects based on the roll. There is a proper order to these things and keeping things orderly helps the game flow property and keep everyone (DM included) involved in the resolution of events.

I readily ignore players who take actions out of turn and roll dice without being called for.

 

[Blue]

The DM decides not just the difficulty, but if a roll is allowed in the first place. Natural 20 has nothing to do with it: there are no automatic successes on ability checks, and just because a player asks to make a check to do something doesn't mean that thing can be done.

Having a live DM includes having someone who creates constraints that challenge the players. Using Polymorph that way doesn't sound challenging, it sounds like trivialising the encounter and creating problems for the future.

The reason I'm being so "adversarial" of course is to dig in my heels, make it clear that the DM is there to have fun too, and that the experience is shared: not one of entitled players and servant DMs. That attitude rubs me up the wrong way.

I just reread the original post, and the reply from the original poster. No where does it say that the DM was rushed. No where did it say that the DM didn't asked for a roll to see if he could throw the polymorphed worm into the mouth of the other one. There's not a single word about entitled players forcing anything on the DM.

Sorry, none of what you are saying holds up.

 

[clearstream]

I just reread the original post, and the reply from the original poster. No where does it say that the DM was rushed. No where did it say that the DM didn't asked for a roll to see if he could throw the polymorphed worm into the mouth of the other one. There's not a single word about entitled players forcing anything on the DM.

Huh? I'm not talking about the OP. I'm addressing your post where you say you would call out "adversarial DMing" if someone didn't run it the way you think they should. Added to which, the way you think it should be run doesn't reflect the words used in the creature stat block and relevant spell.

Okay, probably you meant it lightly and I got heated up about nothing. I play and DM and I know that as a DM I put in twice the work (and expenditure) of my players. I'm there to have fun, as much as they are, and I value imposing constraints because that's what makes the game interesting. Think of the alternative

Player "I win"
DM "Okay"

The DM has to be willing to say "No, that doesn't work. Not even on a natural 20." And of course that requires their players to concede that privilege and burden to them. When I looked at the RAW, Sphere becomes the size of the creature inside it: if you somehow get a colossal creature inside it, then it should become colossal. That might help the players, or it might hinder them. The worm is ravenous, so it might eat something hurled at it, or it might do something else. It has to take an action to first bite something it wants to swallow, so maybe it wouldn't bother to bite a frog when there are larger, tastier creatures in front of it (who are also perhaps threatening and hurting it).