Polymorphing outsiders and undead

[satori01]

An elf's resistance to sleep is, per PHB p. 16, an "immunuty" - just as an undead's resistance to polymorph.

That is not a true analogy. Undead are not immune to polymorph, undead are unaffected by it and by other effects requiring a fort save,(with the caveat about affecting objects).

It is one thing to lower the magical "shields" per say and allow an effect to happen, ala a spell resistant monster allowing a healing spell to effect it. Without a fort save the undead are simply not impacted by those effects not as an end ability but as a consquence of their phisology. An undead creature could not choose to suceptible to a magic spell with a fort effect than it could chose to become suceptible to a posion.

Spell resistance is a controllable binary abillity,(on or off), other salient racial features are more intrinsic.

 

[Dingleberry]

That is not a true analogy. Undead are not immune to polymorph, undead are unaffected by it and by other effects requiring a fort save,(with the caveat about affecting objects).

It is one thing to lower the magical "shields" per say and allow an effect to happen, ala a spell resistant monster allowing a healing spell to effect it. Without a fort save the undead are simply not impacted by those effects not as an end ability but as a consquence of their phisology. An undead creature could not choose to suceptible to a magic spell with a fort effect than it could chose to become suceptible to a posion.

Spell resistance is a controllable binary abillity,(on or off), other salient racial features are more intrinsic.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. Personally, I tend to favor the express wording in the rules (MM p. 6: "Undead have no Constitution scores and are therefore immune to any effect requiring a Fortitude save (unless it affects objects)." (emphasis mine)) over unwritten distinctions between controllable binary spell resistance and intrinsic salient racial features.

The MM2 also states that undead are "immune" to effects requiring Fort saves - and states such immunity in the same list as the undead immunity to sleep. I don't see any rules basis for treating an elf's immunity to sleep differently than an undead's, or to treat an undead's immunity to sleep differently than its immunity to polymorph.

I do agree that my argument does not extend to an undead creature choosing to be susceptible to poison, because the rule I quoted (re: voluntarily giving up a saving throw) speaks only to spell effects, not poisons (or any other effects requiring saves).

 

[Lord Pendragon]

Think of it this way, Dingleberry. A rakshasa can decide to be affected by Bull's Strength, but an undead can't decide to have a Fort Save. The rakshasa is mentally suppressing his resistance to magic. The undead simply isn't affected by some of it.

It's the difference between holding your breath and not breathing to begin with.

 

[Grazzt]

It's the difference between holding your breath and not breathing to begin with.

That's definitely one way to look at it. (Actually, that is the way I see it.....just me perhaps....well and Lord Pendragon. )

 

[Dingleberry]

Think of it this way, Dingleberry. A rakshasa can decide to be affected by Bull's Strength, but an undead can't decide to have a Fort Save. The rakshasa is mentally suppressing his resistance to magic. The undead simply isn't affected by some of it.

It's the difference between holding your breath and not breathing to begin with.

As Grazzt said, that's one way to look at it. I look at it a different way, which I believe to be expressly supported by the rules. Nobody's shown me any rules support for looking at it differently.

 

[cloaker]

Why did they include undead in the description of Poly Other then ?

 

[SimonMoon5]

Why did they include undead in the description of Poly Other then ?

Because Polymorph Self, which undead *can* use, says "Just like Polymorph Other, except..."

 

[KarinsDad]

Sorry guys, but most of you are wrong on this.

The general rule is that Undead cannot be affected by Fort Save spells that do not affect objects.

However, spells can and do override the general rules all of the time. The magic of Flying does not totally go away and produces a feather fall-like when you cast Dispel Magic on it because the spell states that.

Polymorph Other can change an Undead into a different type of Undead.

Undead still have Fort saves and are immune to OTHER spells that have Fort saves but do not affect objects.

However, Polymorph Other (T&B version) is an exception to this rule BECAUSE the spell states that it can be used to polymorph an undead into a different type of undead (ditto for constructs, etc.).


Spells CAN override general rules.

 

[Altamont Ravenard]

I too was tempted by trying such a thing, namely using my necromancer to animate dead and polymorph those lowly skeletons into badasser creatures.

AR

 

[Hypersmurf]

However, Polymorph Other (T&B version) is an exception to this rule BECAUSE the spell states that it can be used to polymorph an undead into a different type of undead (ditto for constructs, etc.).

I disagree... it's not an exception to the rule.

You cannot use Polymorph Other to polymorph a human into a wight, since a human is not already of the type Undead.

You can use Polymorph Other to polymorph a ghoul into a wight... but you'll never break through its effective infinite SR against the spell, so it won't actually happen.

There's still a couple of ways you can do it.

One is to have a creature with Polymorph Other as a Spell-like ability, and use the Savage Species feat Supernatural Transformation to make it a Su ability. Immunity is treated as infinite SR, but Su abilities don't allow SR... so the undead can be polymorphed.

Alternatively, use the Kalamar feat Irresistible Spell, and cast Polymorph Other with a +4 level modifier as a no-save spell. Since it is no longer a spell effect that requires a Fort save (it allows no save at all), undead are no longer immune to it.

-Hyp.