Polytheism in medieval europe

[jgbrowning]

Originally posted by fusangite
jgbrowning, I'm intrigued by your book; I gather it's a hybrid of a gaming manual and academic treatise. If you don't mind, I'd love to hear a little more about the project.

Thanks for the interest! Of course i won't mind expanding a bit.

We decided that the default assumption of DnD is a vaguely medieval world/renaissance world with an overlay of magic. We weren't impressed with the general lack of information concerning world building/society building given in the DMG and decided to produce a book that is probably best viewed as an expansion of those two ideas.

We're trying very hard to make this a supplement and not a setting. We're trying to provide a deeper understanding of the medieval period and convey the "feel" that such a setting has, but always keeping in mind the point of the game is to have fun. ie. we provide information for as much depth as most hard-core medievalists would really encounter in a DnD setting while allowing those who aren't as interested in the details of how city charters occured or how much grain/money does 3 acres of land produce a year. The information is in there, but we are making sure the book can be fully utilized from either perspective.

That being said, we've also take to heart the motto "Stick with the Core Books." We're not adding new prestige classes, new spells, new magic, new magic items.. that is the SOP of almost everyother book out there. We've extrapolated a magical medieval world given the core concepts of polytheism and magic. At all times we've stuck with the core rules. Except in the few rare cases where the core rules contradict themselves..

As far as it being academic, my wife and i are both history buffs and we've used something like 30 or 40 different books on various subject to 1. get a good understanding of how to succesfully convey the medieval time/thought period 2. make sure that where we have to diverge from the core rules, we're doing so with good consideration and scholorship.

But, again, this book is meant to be used in almost any DnD setting. We have a section concering the actual process of growing food. Yep. We have a section concerning cities, trade, guilds, power centers (more than the 4 or so paragraphs in the DMG), religion and arcane magic. We have a section concern those who rule: aristocrats, kings, emperors, barons, churches and the occassional arcane society. And last, but not least, i've written a section concering magical medieval war and how magic really changes everything concerning war.

We've also got appendices and tables out the wazzoo to hearken back to the old DnD day. We've got a system for DM to use to create manors, so when their players finally reach the "landowner" stage they have something better than just a guess, we have a system that allows DM and Players to build just about any structure (using medieval techonolgy levels, prices, **I looked at something like 50 or so medieval building contracts to help build this system.. and reveresed it to get prices for castles and it is rather accurate **, there's a system giving DC's to purchasing items to allow DMs to build a supply demand system, a system for creating aristocratic landowership and wealth, and in the appedices there are sample city charters, laws, guild charters/rules, and examples of tolls/taxes. **Whew**

Our point is to provide useful, fully D20 compatable, information and fluff to help DM's and Players place their characters within a society as opposed to outside. As you mention, many modern concepts are inserted in DnD gaming, and as everyone here knows i don't care what type of game people want to play as long as their having fun, but i do think there are people who want more "depth" to their society.

SHARK had a thread about non-hack roleplaying not long ago. We believe that in order to facilitate such play, while at the same time promoting traditional hack gaming, a DM and players need background information concering their society. This book allows the insertion of society into everyday play and, hopefully, will provide a throughly enjoyable backdrop.

If you have anymore questions, i'd love to answer them as well.

joe b.
Expeditious Retreat Press

 

[Lawrence of Arabica]

Well I for one would buy such a book in an
instant.

How are you dealing with the variations in medieval Europe, both over time and space?

 

[Turjan]

And how do you deal with the shift in costs generated by magic? There are enough low level spells that make life easier .

 

[Thorntangle]

On the other hand, your typical D&D pantheon includes deities covering the gamut of alignments from CE to LG. Even your typical Western historical pantheon typically has at least one trickster (like Loki) or a variety of gods who are often in conflict with each other.

Good points about the pantheon in the Norse style. The gods as interlocking, related characters comprising one whole unit of worship. The Norse style, similar to Greek/Roman, is very dependent on a well-defined mythology that entertains and provides moral lessons.

The full array of alignments does present a problem. As you outlined, most pantheons are good aligned, sometimes with a neutral Destroyer/Entropy/Death figure like Shiva and a chaotic neutral/evil Trickster like Loki, Coyote, etc. that represented human cunning and our playful nature. Nobody actually worshipped Fenriswolf, Surt, Garm or the Midgard Serpent. The evil characters in mythology were typically foils to the gods to incorporate opposition or moral lessons into mythology.

So the trick in a Norse-style pantheon with a typical full array of alignments seems to be the incorporation of the evil gods into an overarching mythology in which they serve to provide binary opposition for the good aligned gods. They are generally not worshipped directly (but hey, there have to be evil cults in D&D, right?) but are completely necessary for the narrative.

 

[Buttercup]

If you have anymore questions, i'd love to answer them as well.

Your book sounds wonderful! The only question I have is, when is it coming out? I'll definately be adding it to my collection.

 

[jgbrowning]

To answer some questions...

Well, just want to say thanks for all the questions!

Buttercup:It is tentatively planned to be finished by the end of this year, then we're going to run it through an editor and through a reader who's very familiar with D20 material and hopefully you'll see the product on the shelves by spring of 2003.
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Turjan: And how do you deal with the shift in costs generated by magic? There are enough low level spells that make life easier

One thing we've tried to do is be consistent with the pricing the core books. I'm sure everyone's aware that the pricing of certain items is, well, nuts... to put it mildly, but the primary goal of the book is to not contradict the core books if at all possible. We want anyone who has the core books to pick up our book and modify our information in a similar manner that they have modified the core information for their campaign.

We think the strength of the book will be the fact that people can pick it up and know how they'll want to modify our information because they've already modified aspects of the core rules to suit them. ie. we're trying to present magical medieval information in a format that is consistent with the "standard" as opposed to trying to alter that standard.

As to magic and price relations, we're stressing the vastly different mind set of a magical medieval person vers a modern person. As americans, we generally consider "faster, cheaper = better" (i dont want to get in any flames over that, but i do think it is a decent summation of a modern mindset we're all familiar with). We're trying to show that just because something is, to us looking back, an obvious way to improve fiscal matters, doesn't necessarily mean that that "obvious" way is actually obvious to the people in question. I don't want to take the time here, but i do in the book, to deal with a good comparison between the medieval and modern mindset, but i think everyone can agree that the same abilities (magic here) do not necessarily pose a dramatic improvement.

That being said, of course magic changes everything! The book is called a "magical" medieval society and we deal extensively with how magic changes, peasants living, city living, aristocratic living, relationships between power centers (hard to have a secret thieves guild with divination magic ), and most dramatically war.

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Lawrence of Arabica: How are you dealing with the variations in medieval Europe, both over time and space?

That is a very good question and we spent quite a bit of time thinking about what time period "suits" the default DnD setting. We decided, based upon equipment available and price of such items as pepper and silk vrs the average wages in the core rules and other stuff that our period would roughly be 1350-1500. Due mostly to our lack of reading latin (very well at least) french or german we've been forced to use only english language sources which, of course , deal mostly with england and france. We've got a few good sources about germany and will include information that could easily be used for a more "germanic" setting.

Actually the greatest variance between germany, england, france, and the netherland/lowlands area is mostly a matter of aristocracy and feudal/early governmental aspects. We deal with the various forms of monarchy and touch lightly upon the concept of emperors, so if you want a particular local flavor you shouldn't have any difficulty find it. We also include city state information for a more italian feel, but that's not where the strength of the book lies. Spain, Scandinavian peninsula, east europe etc are left out completely. It is called "A Magical Medieval Society: Western Europe." in hopes that if it does well we'll cover the parts we've left out.

One thing i'd like to make clear is that the book contains NO history in it! Not that i dont like history, obviously i do, but knowing what king did what is absolutely useless to a DnD player. If they want to know that for a campaign setting they'll get much better information by buying even only an introductory history book. Our book sets up the society for the DMs and players to interact within. We expect, and want, DMs to customize our information to suit their needs. That's why we're being very careful to follow the core rules, even when there is good reason to make changes.

edit: and the whole things going to be OGC, except our company name and my and my wife's names..

joe b.
Expeditious Retreat Press

*just made our logo two days ago ... its basically the old TSR wizard running like hell with his hat flying off... * yeah, i spoke with AV so there's no issue there... gotta dot the tttt's and cross the iiii's ya know..

 

[jgbrowning]

polytheism/monotheism

To get this thread back on track a bit and as an apology for hijacking it in the first place...

I think the most important aspect of introducing a polytheistic concept into a medieval type environment is not the actual religious part of it...


Its the land.


The church gained its power through control of land. It had its influence through the same. At the root of the church's power was not its theology or doctrine, it was its wealth. This is not to say that people weren't relgious, they were very religious, but the church's wealth allowed them to persue their various goals.

Also there was often conflict within the church.... power grabs, failures to accept authority, heretical movements, the introduction of new concepts of religious worship (benedictics, cistertians.. monasitic orders).. etc.. the list of conflicts is very large.

You'd have church men owning land by kings fighting other churchmen who owned land by another king.

If you want to deal with polytheism, you have to look first at how the lack of a unifiying church (though it wasn't always too unified ) would have upon your world. Concepts like alienation of land, investature, tax exemptions.. etc.. would all have to be looked carefully at to make sure it matches your concept of your world.

joe b.
*ps... my personal favorite is paladins "pre-purchasing" atonements before they go off to war *

 

[fusangite]

Good points about the pantheon in the Norse style. The gods as interlocking, related characters comprising one whole unit of worship. The Norse style, similar to Greek/Roman, is very dependent on a well-defined mythology that entertains and provides moral lessons.

The full array of alignments does present a problem. As you outlined, most pantheons are good aligned, sometimes with a neutral Destroyer/Entropy/Death figure like Shiva and a chaotic neutral/evil Trickster like Loki, Coyote, etc. that represented human cunning and our playful nature. Nobody actually worshipped Fenriswolf, Surt, Garm or the Midgard Serpent. The evil characters in mythology were typically foils to the gods to incorporate opposition or moral lessons into mythology.

So the trick in a Norse-style pantheon with a typical full array of alignments seems to be the incorporation of the evil gods into an overarching mythology in which they serve to provide binary opposition for the good aligned gods. They are generally not worshipped directly (but hey, there have to be evil cults in D&D, right?) but are completely necessary for the narrative.

This revisionist treatment of Norse mythology is just the sort of thing I was talking about in the violence done to European polytheism by analytic logic.

We all know that Loki leads the giants across the rainbow bridge to slay the gods, unchain Fenris the Wolf and destroy the cosmos. But here's another story about Loki: Once, he, Thor and Odin traveled to another world to the court of another Loki, Utgaard-Loki where Loki fought against Utgaard-Loki on the side of Odin and Thor. Utgaard-Loki is generally, in the story, considered to also be Loki. It's like those episodes of the Superfriends when one of the superheroes, let's say Aquaman for the sake of argument, has been abducted and you see all of the other heroes discussing how to rescue Aquaman, including Aquaman himself. The difference is that in many types of polytheism, this kind of thinking is not an error or oversight, it's part of a fundamentally different worldview.

In the campaign world I am running now, I created a perfectly consistent mythology and history and then had to go back and paint in the "inconsistencies" so that the apparent inconsistency actually pointed to a more profound truth about the subject. Here, I have to say, the philosophy of the Runequest mythic world is fundamentally superior to D&D; Runequest's treatment of religion incorporates the "inconsistencies" that enrich pagan myth as well as understanding the importance of religion as the backbone of social organization.

 

[Rhialto]

This revisionist treatment of Norse mythology is just the sort of thing I was talking about in the violence done to European polytheism by analytic logic.

We all know that Loki leads the giants across the rainbow bridge to slay the gods, unchain Fenris the Wolf and destroy the cosmos. But here's another story about Loki: Once, he, Thor and Odin traveled to another world to the court of another Loki, Utgaard-Loki where Loki fought against Utgaard-Loki on the side of Odin and Thor. Utgaard-Loki is generally, in the story, considered to also be Loki. It's like those episodes of the Superfriends when one of the superheroes, let's say Aquaman for the sake of argument, has been abducted and you see all of the other heroes discussing how to rescue Aquaman, including Aquaman himself. The difference is that in many types of polytheism, this kind of thinking is not an error or oversight, it's part of a fundamentally different worldview.

That's--well, not completely right. Loki and Utgard-Loki are different characters--who may at one point have been the same character. The fact is our knowledge of Norse mythology is rather sketchy, and based mostly on accounts compiled centuries after the heyday of paganism. There is a good chance that Loki's addition to the Aesir was a late addition, where quite possibly he usurped the role of Odin in many myths.

And contradiction exists in all mythologies, not just polytheistic ones. It's the simple result of several things--the legends of various groups being absorbed into the whole, variations of in stories told being noted down as seperate myths, and occasionally simple errors. Personally, I think it's easy to forget the fact that as opposed to the real world, in the standard D&D world the gods are not only real beyond all doubt, but capable of direct communication to their followers...

This tends to clear up any doctrinal differances rather quickly.

AMPTHAR THE MIGHTY: YOU HAVE CALLED, OH PUNY CHILD OF THE EARTH?

Priest: Yes, oh, mighty Ampthar. I merely was wondering--on the subject of hula hoops...

AMPTHAR THE MIGHTY: FOOLISH PIECE OF FLESH AND CLAY, HAS THE ALL-POWERFUL AMPTHAR NOT MADE HIS WILL KNOWN IN THIS? 'THE USE OF THE HULA HOOP IS PUNISHABLE UNTO DEATH'!! GEEZ, WHAT DOES A SUPREME DIETY HAVE TO DO AROUND HERE TO GET HIS WILL KNOWN? THIS TIME NOTE IT DOWN, AND MAKE DAMN SURE YOU FOLLOW IT! AND GET ME SOME CANICHES, WHILE YOU'RE AT IT!

Priest: Very well, oh Resplendent One. Now, if you could answer a few questions the flock on the subject of Ilsara, Lady of Delights...

AMPTHAR THE MIGHTY: NOTHING HAPPENED BETWEEN US! UNDERSTAND THAT?! NOTHING! ANYTHING SHE SAYS, SHE'S LYING!

Priest: It's just that people are talking, oh Magnificent Lord...

AMPTHAR THE MIGHTY: WELL, THEY CAN DAMN WELL STOP! NEXT ONE OF MY FLOCK TO EVEN SAY HER NAME GETS A SMITING! AM I MAKING MYSELF CLEAR HERE? NOW WHERE ARE THOSE CANICHES? I'M STARVING HERE, SPAWN OF WRETCHEDNESS!

 

[Khorod]

cool thread.

I have a late 17th century campaign setting.
It is polytheistic in Europe.

Solution was that I use religious philosophical systems on top of the various churches and religions. So, for example, the most accepted religious philosophy, of which all truly maintstream religions are a part, is something I label 'Henotheism'. This is the ancient Hebrew belief in 'Yes, we worship the One God, but there are others. We ignore them.'

Of course, monotheism and the worship of non-gods, such as demons, are both heresies. The result is that individual religions become a very loose association within a given philosophy that can act sort of like a European Church.

It can have inquisitions, internal philosophical debates, and religious wars, all the while praying to two different gods.

Out-and-out pantheism- worshipping all the gods, is a rare thing done mostly by philosophical priests. Gods within a particular philsophy can generally get on somewhat. Well, their priests can get along somewhat.

Sorry 'bout this. I have LOTS of ideas on what I am doing, but have spent little time structuring them.