Possible Solution to the Dexterity vs Strength debate?

[DaedalusX51]

After reading through discussions on Strength vs Dexterity, I've decided to find a way of giving Strength a boost.
As part of this document I have added Strength Requirements for all weapons. Some things of note:

• All Strength Requirements are an odd number to give a benefit to odd ability scores.
• Many Two-handed weapons are able to be wielded in one hand with reduced damage when you have the Strength of an Ogre (STR 19).
• I've moved many weapons that shouldn't require martial training (Farming/Hunting Weapons) to Simple Weapons such as: Net, Whip, and Blowgun.
• I've balanced damage and properties across a few weapons that were out of category: Trident, Sickle, Handaxe, and Club.
• I've added additional weapons such as: Axe, Scythe, Pitchfork, Chain whip, Greatbow, Greatflail, Greatspear, and Spiked Chain.

Obviously this is a lot of numbers and some of them may be further out of range than they should be. Any assistance or advice is greatly appreciated!
Homebrewery Link

 

[Gardens & Goblins]

Interesting approach - thank you for sharing!

Encounter design and an understanding of the benefits of strength (an appreciation of a world where a certain physicality is present) seems important. It's less a mechanical/rules approach and more a world building/encounter design.

For example, we're fairly strict on encumbrance. Makes Strength much more appealing - none of the three active parties feature a member with a strength of less than 10, simple due to general junk adventures seem to need/insist on lugging about.

..and then there's treasure.

The characters with better dex, in our groups at least, tend to be casters and rogues - with one ranger. While many will make the case that dexterity is the better stat, in our play it's not been a problem.

[sblock]Sure, at much higher levels they may have access to all manner of wizzywig options, but our DM's still ensure a healthy collection of strength based challenges (or rather, moments where strength provides a boon), such as stuck doors, things in high places (while acrobatics may help navigate the rooftops, athletics gets you up there) and good old heavy-things-that-need-to-be/should-be moved - such as oak tables over trap doors, stone blockades and the unconscious cleric.

I think it might also be due to our groups being comprised of folks who enjoy lifting heavy things in real life![/sblock]

 

[BookBarbarian]

So based on your table why would I ever use a Handaxe over a Dagger? My Strength based characters had plenty of reason to do so before, but not now.

 

[Oofta]

Just a note - you misspelled Requirements.

Another thing I've done is to give people the option to buy reinforced heavy bows and crossbows. So if you have an 18 or higher strength for example, you can buy or upgrade a weapon to +4. Anyone that doesn't have the strength required can still use it, but only gets their maximum strength bonus and is at disadvantage.

Normally bows are limited to a +5 this way, but I had one character with a belt of giant strength that had a bow custom made out of a dragon's rib cage that only he could pull.

To me this is more accurate as it reflect heavier pull weight of a bow. Having done a fair amount of archery in my misspent youth, it's always bugged me that bows were dex based only; if I really cared I'd have a minimum strength of 10 for a shortbow and a 12 for a longbow. Or maybe just reduced range.

Old school longbows required quite a bit of strength to pull, it's one of the reasons crossbows gained such popularity. Composite bows aren't as bad, but can still require a decent amount of strength depending on the bow.

 

[DaedalusX51]

So based on your table why would I ever use a Handaxe over a Dagger? My Strength based characters had plenty of reason to do so before, but not now.

Good point. In simple weapon terms, you are right that the differences of the Dagger, Handaxe, and Light Hammer are now negligible. However that is because I didn't think to correct the terrible throwing weapon situation that the original weapons table created.

Now that you mention it, I've made some changes:
* handaxe and light hammer changed to hatchet and hammer.
* added Martial weapons Throwing Axe and Throwing hammer.
* moved javelin to Martial weapons and added a Heavy Javelin.

See if that changes things a bit.

 

[BookBarbarian]

Good point. In simple weapon terms, you are right that the differences of the Dagger, Handaxe, and Light Hammer are now negligible. However that is because I didn't think to correct the terrible throwing weapon situation that the original weapons table created.

Now that you mention it, I've made some changes:
* handaxe and light hammer changed to hatchet and hammer.
* added Martial weapons Throwing Axe and Throwing hammer.
* moved javelin to Martial weapons and added a Heavy Javelin.

See if that changes things a bit.

That looks pretty solid.

 

[MrHotter]

Just a note - you misspelled Requirements.

Another thing I've done is to give people the option to buy reinforced heavy bows and crossbows. So if you have an 18 or higher strength for example, you can buy or upgrade a weapon to +4. Anyone that doesn't have the strength required can still use it, but only gets their maximum strength bonus and is at disadvantage.

Normally bows are limited to a +5 this way, but I had one character with a belt of giant strength that had a bow custom made out of a dragon's rib cage that only he could pull.

To me this is more accurate as it reflect heavier pull weight of a bow. Having done a fair amount of archery in my misspent youth, it's always bugged me that bows were dex based only; if I really cared I'd have a minimum strength of 10 for a shortbow and a 12 for a longbow. Or maybe just reduced range.

Old school longbows required quite a bit of strength to pull, it's one of the reasons crossbows gained such popularity. Composite bows aren't as bad, but can still require a decent amount of strength depending on the bow.

Dexterity based weapons are based on accuracy. That's why they use dex instead of STR. I'm sure that DEX based characters would also like to come up with a justification to user their DEX for their polearm or greataxe as well.

 

[Oofta]

Dexterity based weapons are based on accuracy. That's why they use dex instead of STR. I'm sure that DEX based characters would also like to come up with a justification to user their DEX for their polearm or greataxe as well.

I already stated that allowing a strength bonus to bows is a house rule.

Having said that, have you ever used a bow? I real one? Dexterity encapsulates a lot of things, but a long bow had an estimated draw weight of 100–185 lbs (depending on version and who you ask), while a modern hunting bow has a draw weight of 60 lbs or less.

Can you pick up 185 lbs with one hand? Hold it there while aiming? Try this at home - tie a rope to 185 pounds of weight. Put the rope over a bar at shoulder height. Now pull the rope and lift the weight off the floor. That's roughly the equivalent, although a long bow gets harder to pull the further you pull it.

All those TV shows and movies where they show someone holding a drawn arrow for minutes on end as they chat? Complete B.S. unless they're using a compound bow (and probably not even then).

Heavier draw weights allow for flatter trajectory and less drift which means greater accuracy. No dexterity required. Well, at least according to my house rule.

 

[Patrick McGill]

My personal idea is to have a 7th stat. I know this is pretty much slaughtering a sacred cow for purposes of big mac, but it makes sense to me.

This stat would be Agility. What would happen is Dexterity would cover what dexterity is actually supposed to mean in the real world: hand eye coordination/ your ability to to use your hands. Agility would cover speed/initiative/AC bonuses. Dexterity would help with applicable skills (sleight of hand) and most non-brute force weapons. I'd change weapon classifications as well. Only things like clubs, axes, and maces would use strength for both to-hit and damage. Swords would use dexterity for to hit and strength for damage.

I think as it stands right now Dex is too good of a stat. Finesse weapons being able to use dex for both hitting and damaging means that for purposes of min/maxing, you're always better off going for a dex based character because of the AC and the number of dex skills that key off of it. Having Agility to split the quick/swift stuff and the coordination/aim between two attributes would be great.

Obviously they'll never do that. But if I ever design an OGL system, that's what I'd do. And armor as DR. Like it should be.

 

[MrHotter]

I already stated that allowing a strength bonus to bows is a house rule.

Having said that, have you ever used a bow? I real one? Dexterity encapsulates a lot of things, but a long bow had an estimated draw weight of 100–185 lbs (depending on version and who you ask), while a modern hunting bow has a draw weight of 60 lbs or less.

Can you pick up 185 lbs with one hand? Hold it there while aiming? Try this at home - tie a rope to 185 pounds of weight. Put the rope over a bar at shoulder height. Now pull the rope and lift the weight off the floor. That's roughly the equivalent, although a long bow gets harder to pull the further you pull it.

All those TV shows and movies where they show someone holding a drawn arrow for minutes on end as they chat? Complete B.S. unless they're using a compound bow (and probably not even then).

Heavier draw weights allow for flatter trajectory and less drift which means greater accuracy. No dexterity required. Well, at least according to my house rule.

I had a couple cheap bows when I was little, so I definitely had strength issues while using them.


It's just that not everything has to make real world sense in D&D. I'm not sure why a rogue can do more damage with a dagger than he can with a balista. I also don't know why a halfling with 20 strength can't use a great axe as well as a dwarf with an 8 strength. Many rules decisions are just made for the sake of playability and balance.

I'm sure we all houserule things we don't agree with, but we need to be carefull to make sure that the players are not trying to houserule away any of their characters weeknesses or are just trying to give themselves free bonuses. Just because the bard makes his amplifier go all the way to 11, we should not give him damage bonuses for all of his spells.

I also know we want to use the 'rule of cool', so if the fighter wants a STR based bow, then make it work. I'd probably still tell them they need to use dex for the hit bonus even if they use str for the damage bonus. That way it's a trade off between using their 'cool' item or sticking with thrown weapons that were made for high str characters.