Possible Solution to the Dexterity vs Strength debate?

[Oofta]

The dexterity and strength modeling used by D&D is a bit of a kludge. It serves a purpose, but there's a point where things are too simplified to try to model things after the real world.

Look at the gymnast ring routines as an example. Do you really believe that doesn't require a higher than average strength to pull off? Yet in a D&D contest, most people would call for just an acrobatics check and the 8 strength would not matter.

That's OK, it's one of the compromises we make to keep the game simple.

Or take a look at LOTR movie. Legoland ... I mean Legolas ... is the embodiment of a high dexterity archer. Yet the uruk-hai were pretty deadly with bows as well (I'm thinking the scene where ***spoiler alert*** Boromir dies). I'd say the uruk-hai relied on strength when shooting their bow, not dexterity.

I don't see a problem with allowing both styles. To keep it simple it's one or the other and not both.

 

[MrHotter]

So you're saying you need to the constitution to be able to keep the string taunt, after using your strength to pull it, while you use your intelligence to pick out weak points and your wisdom to calculate how various factors will affect the arrow's flight, all while maintaining the dexterity to track your target while sighting down a bow?

It seems a player could justify using any stat as their attack stat for a bow. My warlock designed his own bow that uses charisma as an attack stat (dryad wood). Monsters jump in front of my arrows because they want to please me.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

The dexterity and strength modeling used by D&D is a bit of a kludge. It serves a purpose, but there's a point where things are too simplified to try to model things after the real world.

Its not too bad as an overview. Realistically both attack and defence need athleticism and power (Str) and reflexes and balance (Dex), but splitting them so Dex covers defence and Str covers attack is a good general compromise.

Or take a look at LOTR movie. Legoland ... I mean Legolas ... is the embodiment of a high dexterity archer. Yet the uruk-hai were pretty deadly with bows as well (I'm thinking the scene where ***spoiler alert*** Boromir dies). I'd say the uruk-hai relied on strength when shooting their bow, not dexterity.

Legolas was hardly infirm and unathletic. While he certainly had an extremely high Dex, his Str mod would almost certainly have been positive as well.
Likewise the Uruk-hai weren't exactly clumsy. (Plus, point-blank range against someone unaware/didn't use their shield.)

 

[phantomK9]

I've been contemplating a radical shift.....

All weapons use Dex to hit and Str for damage.....

 

[Yunru]

I've been contemplating a radical shift.....

All weapons use Dex to hit and Str for damage.....

I... actually kinda like that. The Fighter (who's going to be most concerned about his +mod) happens to be the class that gets extra ASI, enough to maintain both Dex and Str.

 

[Oofta]

Its not too bad as an overview. Realistically both attack and defence need athleticism and power (Str) and reflexes and balance (Dex), but splitting them so Dex covers defence and Str covers attack is a good general compromise.


Legolas was hardly infirm and unathletic. While he certainly had an extremely high Dex, his Str mod would almost certainly have been positive as well.
Likewise the Uruk-hai weren't exactly clumsy. (Plus, point-blank range against someone unaware/didn't use their shield.)

True, and I'm not pushing for a new "strexterity" stat. There are many things that are simply too difficult to model in a simple pen and paper game accurately.

If I cared enough about it (and I don't) I'd have a minimum strength for a longbow. I would also reduce attack modifier by dexterity modifier for any ranged attack if your dexterity modifier is negative. There's not really that much difference between throwing a javelin and shooting a bow that's adjusted for your strength.

But that all gets to be too much overhead for the spirit of D&D. My simple solution is give strength based characters an option similar to what we had in 3.5 with reinforced bows.

 

[phantomK9]

I... actually kinda like that. The Fighter (who's going to be most concerned about his +mod) happens to be the class that gets extra ASI, enough to maintain both Dex and Str.

I've just seen way too many discussions (especially bows) where people are talking how both are needed, and logically it does make sense that anyone who is practiced in a weapon's use would need both the ability to move quickly and the strength enough to lift the weapon and maneuver it properly. I've also been watching a good deal of videos lately where it has been proven that a lot of the weapons that D&D have classified as "light" really aren't much lighter than other weapons, and what try makes them different is how they are balance (either towards the grip or towards the end).

 

[MrHotter]

[FONT=&]After reading through discussions on Strength vs Dexterity, I've decided to find a way of giving Strength a boost.[/FONT]
[FONT=&]As part of this document I have added Strength Requirements for all weapons. Some things of note:[/FONT]

• All Strength Requirements are an odd number to give a benefit to odd ability scores.
• Many Two-handed weapons are able to be wielded in one hand with reduced damage when you have the Strength of an Ogre (STR 19).
• I've moved many weapons that shouldn't require martial training (Farming/Hunting Weapons) to Simple Weapons such as: Net, Whip, and Blowgun.
• I've balanced damage and properties across a few weapons that were out of category: Trident, Sickle, Handaxe, and Club.
• I've added additional weapons such as: Axe, Scythe, Pitchfork, Chain whip, Greatbow, Greatflail, Greatspear, and Spiked Chain.

[FONT=&]Obviously this is a lot of numbers and some of them may be further out of range than they should be. Any assistance or advice is greatly appreciated![/FONT]
[FONT=&]Homebrewery Link[/FONT]

I've been posting and I've forgotten to address the original post.

The idea is nice, but I'm worried that you are overthinking/overcomplicating the game without actually addressing the issue you want to rectify (str vs. dex benefits).

I made a similar change in my game to address the 'heavy' property for weapons. I just made 'heavy' mean you need a str of 13 or more to wield (instead of based on character size). That puts it in line with heavy armor str requirements.

I don't see a str vs dex issue when it comes to weapons/armor. If you want to use certain weapons you need to have certain stats.

Where the str vs dex issue arises is when it comes to non weapon/armor uses. Str becomes a dump stat for most classes because it's only use is for athletics for any character who does not depend on str weapons. Most players would rather have a higher AC (without armor), better initiative, and a wider range of skills.

To balance str vs dex as a stat I would see about giving str more non-weapon related benefits. An easy change would be to remove constitution and let strength be the place to get bonus hps and more opportunities to use the stat for saves.

 

[DaedalusX51]

I've been posting and I've forgotten to address the original post.

The idea is nice, but I'm worried that you are overthinking/overcomplicating the game without actually addressing the issue you want to rectify (str vs. dex benefits).

I made a similar change in my game to address the 'heavy' property for weapons. I just made 'heavy' mean you need a str of 13 or more to wield (instead of based on character size). That puts it in line with heavy armor str requirements.

I don't see a str vs dex issue when it comes to weapons/armor. If you want to use certain weapons you need to have certain stats.

Where the str vs dex issue arises is when it comes to non weapon/armor uses. Str becomes a dump stat for most classes because it's only use is for athletics for any character who does not depend on str weapons. Most players would rather have a higher AC (without armor), better initiative, and a wider range of skills.

To balance str vs dex as a stat I would see about giving str more non-weapon related benefits. An easy change would be to remove constitution and let strength be the place to get bonus hps and more opportunities to use the stat for saves.

With my changes it becomes difficult to actually dump Strength too low due to the requirements on all weapons. In addition, at 19 Strength, players gain an additional die size added to damage over a character that dumps Strength. This means that a 20 Strength character with the Dual Wielder feat is able to wield two Greatswords at 1d10+5 damage each. While a 20 Dexterity character with the Dual Wielder feat is only able to wield two Rapiers dealing 1d8+5 damage each.

One of the issues with the game currently is that you pick either Strength or Dexterity as your main stat while dumping the other, and I don't see why they can't both be as important as each other.
An additional benefit to this is that if you decide to make a Strength and Dexterity focused character, you can wield a Greatbow or a Heavy Crossbow in one hand.

I think these benefit are flavorful for Strength as well as covering a bit of the imbalance between the two.

If there is something I've overlooked, please let me know as this is still the first draft.

 

[MostlyDm]

Technique isn't Dex. Technique is proficiency bonus. Dex is balance, flexibility, grace. These are all useful, but so is power and athleticism.

Shooting a target arrow at a stationary target in good wind conditions, when all that is required is that the arrow stick into the straw enough to stay stuck in, is not the same as shooting a war arrow at a moving target where you need to penetrate armour and body.
Particularly when using a less-efficient historical bow rather than one using modern materials that produces more power per draw-weight.

Remember that D&D incorporates armour avoidance/penetration into the attack roll. An arrow that bounces off armour or simply stops at the skin and muscle of a large creature rather than penetrating to deal actual damage is still a 'miss' in D&D terms.

A higher-poundage bow projects an arrow that travels faster, meaning that it needs less trajectory, its less affected by wind and similar conditions, and its target will have moved less since it was loosed. Those all contribute to accuracy.
There is a reason that even target-shooting archers prefer to use the most powerful bow that they can control.

My group just has a houserule that bows can use either Str or Dex. That way caters to both popular media tropes and historical realism with minimal complications.

For my 3.5/1e/E6 mashup homebrew game, I actually allow people to use Str or Dex for attack rolls with virtually all weapons. With some loose strength requirements to wield a weapon at all... a Str 10 warrior isn't going to be using Dex on his attacks with a Maul. But I don't have a hard rule for such cases, as my players share my approximate sense of verisimilitude and simply don't attempt stuff like that.

In this system, if you use Str for your attack roll then you add your modifier to damage. If you use Dex, you add your modifier to "penetration," which is a houseruled mechanic that goes hand-in-hand with my armor-as-DR rules. In this case, not modeling actual penetration of armor, but rather precision hits that avoid the most armored areas. Mechanically speaking, a penetration bonus is usually just a worse version of a damage bonus, since over-penetration of armor is typicallyirrelevant (e.g. if a target has 4 armor, and you can get +5 damage or +5 penetration, damage will be better. The extra 1 point will carry over into the target). This, by design, means that strength is overall preferable to Dex for offense. Dexterity affects your ability to avoid being hit, so this means the two balance out somewhat. Dex is probably still a little too good, but the difference is pretty small.

I haven't ported any of these rules into 5e yet. But most of them will map pretty well, when I have a reason to do so. I kind of look forward to it... I think that ultimately my low-fantasy gritty houserules will actually feel a lot more at home in 5e, and less like a bizarre kludge of different systems and mechanics. But I haven't taken the plunge yet.