Possible Solution to the Dexterity vs Strength debate?

[The Human Target]

I remember growing up on the farm.

Rising at dawn to whip carrots from the garden.

Good times.

 

[Yunru]

I already stated that allowing a strength bonus to bows is a house rule.

Having said that, have you ever used a bow? I real one? Dexterity encapsulates a lot of things, but a long bow had an estimated draw weight of 100–185 lbs (depending on version and who you ask), while a modern hunting bow has a draw weight of 60 lbs or less.

Can you pick up 185 lbs with one hand? Hold it there while aiming? Try this at home - tie a rope to 185 pounds of weight. Put the rope over a bar at shoulder height. Now pull the rope and lift the weight off the floor. That's roughly the equivalent, although a long bow gets harder to pull the further you pull it.

All those TV shows and movies where they show someone holding a drawn arrow for minutes on end as they chat? Complete B.S. unless they're using a compound bow (and probably not even then).

Heavier draw weights allow for flatter trajectory and less drift which means greater accuracy. No dexterity required. Well, at least according to my house rule.

This is all wrong. Your approach is wrong. So much of shooting a bow is technique, rather than brute strengrh. Dex, rather than Str.

A strong man without practice isn't going to be able to just pick up a longbow and fire off shots (unless they're naturally gifted).

 

[Oofta]

This is all wrong. Your approach is wrong. So much of shooting a bow is technique, rather than brute strengrh. Dex, rather than Str.

A strong man without practice isn't going to be able to just pick up a longbow and fire off shots (unless they're naturally gifted).

And a dextrous (but weak) person would never be able to effectively use a long bow that they couldn't pull the string back no matter how much they practice.

What's your point? Level, proficiency, etc all contribute to accuracy

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

This is all wrong. Your approach is wrong. So much of shooting a bow is technique, rather than brute strengrh. Dex, rather than Str.

Technique isn't Dex. Technique is proficiency bonus. Dex is balance, flexibility, grace. These are all useful, but so is power and athleticism.

Shooting a target arrow at a stationary target in good wind conditions, when all that is required is that the arrow stick into the straw enough to stay stuck in, is not the same as shooting a war arrow at a moving target where you need to penetrate armour and body.
Particularly when using a less-efficient historical bow rather than one using modern materials that produces more power per draw-weight.

Remember that D&D incorporates armour avoidance/penetration into the attack roll. An arrow that bounces off armour or simply stops at the skin and muscle of a large creature rather than penetrating to deal actual damage is still a 'miss' in D&D terms.

A higher-poundage bow projects an arrow that travels faster, meaning that it needs less trajectory, its less affected by wind and similar conditions, and its target will have moved less since it was loosed. Those all contribute to accuracy.
There is a reason that even target-shooting archers prefer to use the most powerful bow that they can control.

My group just has a houserule that bows can use either Str or Dex. That way caters to both popular media tropes and historical realism with minimal complications.

A strong man without practice isn't going to be able to just pick up a longbow and fire off shots (unless they're naturally gifted).

I'm unsure of the point that you're making: Neither is a graceful man, without practice.
In fact the strong man is going to at least be able to shoot a warbow, albeit without much accuracy.

 

[Yunru]

It still requires finesse, which is traditionally modelled by dexterity.

 

[Mishihari Lord]

I'd expect strength to influence longbow accuracy a lot. In combat you don't just pull & shoot. You look for the right shot, which means holding your pull while you get on target and wait for the right opportunity. I shoot a 90 pound compound bow, usually at a target, and I usually have the string back about 10 seconds unless I'm just plinking. Your hand gets pretty tired doing this. With a longbow, your hand is going to get very tired, which makes your aiming point wander around quite a bit, unless you're very, very strong.

 

[Yunru]

I'd expect strength to influence longbow accuracy a lot. In combat you don't just pull & shoot. You look for the right shot, which means holding your pull while you get on target and wait for the right opportunity. I shoot a 90 pound compound bow, usually at a target, and I usually have the string back about 10 seconds unless I'm just plinking. Your hand gets pretty tired doing this. With a longbow, your hand is going to get very tired, which makes your aiming point wander around quite a bit, unless you're very, very strong.

So you're saying you need to the constitution to be able to keep the string taunt, after using your strength to pull it, while you use your intelligence to pick out weak points and your wisdom to calculate how various factors will affect the arrow's flight, all while maintaining the dexterity to track your target while sighting down a bow?

 

[Caliburn101]

I have experimented successfully with the following hybridisation in this area;

Str+Dex Bonus/2 = Melee Attack Bonus
Dex+Wis Bonus/2 = Ranged Attack Bonus

 

[Sacrosanct]

I'd expect strength to influence longbow accuracy a lot. In combat you don't just pull & shoot. You look for the right shot, which means holding your pull while you get on target and wait for the right opportunity. I shoot a 90 pound compound bow, usually at a target, and I usually have the string back about 10 seconds unless I'm just plinking. Your hand gets pretty tired doing this. With a longbow, your hand is going to get very tired, which makes your aiming point wander around quite a bit, unless you're very, very strong.

Historical use of the longbow doesn't match this description. In combat, the longbow was used as part of a larger group and fired in volleys. They didn't draw, then track targets for up to 10 seconds before releasing. You're right in that strength was very much critical for a long bow but only for the draw weight, and it was in fact very much pull and shoot with little delay. Firing in combat is MUCH different than target shooting as well. I imagine it's similar to modern ranged weapons. I have a lot of experience firing weapons in the military. On the range, you take your time and aim for that best shot. In combat, you point in the general direction and fire; you don't sit there and aim for 5-10 seconds (unless you're a sniper who isn't being fired at yourself).

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

It still requires finesse, which is traditionally modelled by dexterity.

Never said it doesn't. I was just explaining to the poster who was claiming that Oofta's post was all wrong that Strength actually does play a part in most use of a bow in D&D.

Depending upon how you define finesse, it is indeed useful for shooting a bow and can be covered under the Dexterity ability. Certainly capabilities that are covered by D&D's Dexterity stat like grace, balance, reflexes are useful when shooting a bow. As is the capability to control a higher-poundage bow.
That is why I allow either in my house rules. For the sake of simplicity I don't try to incorporate both at once by taking the average or other more convoluted methods.

In most D&D combats, aiming isn't going to take more than a few seconds, and so I wouldn't worry too much about Constitution being an issue. If your aim is off because your hand shakes then you are probably using a bow with too high a draw weight for the situation.