D&D 5E (2014) PotA Worth Buying?

[Zardnaar]

OK Mistwell I was at work on the cell phone earlier. Its good to see your opinion on the Savage Tide Adventure Path. IMHO that its probably one of the best APs ever made or at least the 1st half of it.

Would you recommend getting PotA? Assuming the postage on Amazon to NZ is not to much I'll buy it based on your recommendation alone. Buy or not to buy that is the question.

Pros its an adventure that doesn;t sound to bad.
ons may not be my type of adventure but I may be able to talkone of my players into running it.

It doesn't have to be better than the best APs but I expect more than HotDQ, Second Darkness or City of the Spider Queen in quality.

 

[Queer Venger]

They probably could be. Did you like the Starter Set adventure... because I thought that one was awesome!

The reasons I'm not that fond of Princes have a lot to do with the problems inherent in writing a sandbox environment for such a large range of levels. The group I've been running through Princes began by investigating the Monastery (with a detour to Feathergale Spire) and then with the Monastery cleared wandered down into the depths of the temple. At 5th level, into a portion of the adventure written for 8th or 9th level PCs. And that they have to retreat and explore somewhere else "to gain XP" makes for a very artificial way of telling the story.

Now, this doesn't mean there isn't a lot of excellent material in Princes. For there is. My problems with the adventure come much more from how it all links together and how the PCs progress through it, rather than the individual encounters.

Cheers!

I think we share similar tastes Merric. I also liked Tyranny (which Im starting to run) and Lost Mines of Phandelver, (which I ran for 7 months and just wrapped up) which is probably one of my all time favorite modules in D&D right next to Keep on the Borderlands.

 

[Nebulous]

I think we share similar tastes Merric. I also liked Tyranny (which Im starting to run) and Lost Mines of Phandelver, (which I ran for 7 months and just wrapped up) which is probably one of my all time favorite modules in D&D right next to Keep on the Borderlands.

LMoP was very cool.

 

[Mistwell]

Outsourcing is a ridiculous criticism, but it's an accurate statement. I'm sorry if that upsets you.

And, yes, Paizo do the same thing.

I didn't say it upset me. Stop putting words in my mouth. I said it's taken as a negative. And it is.

Nice misuse of statistics there. There's no product called "Tyranny of Dragons" in the review system - "Hoard of the Dragon Queen" got 53% and "Rise of Tiamat" got 75%.

I didn't misuse statistics and there IS a product in there that said Tyranny (I know because I found it by clicking search for that word). But whatever, you are PROVING MY POINT but you think I am making some argument I am not. SO BOTH got lower scores than the Paizo ones you cited - which proves my point that the review system works just fine. Did you think I was trying to argument Tyranny is good? If so...why? What about anything I've said would imply I liked it?

And "Second Darkness" got 50% across eight reviews - not enough to be considered anything more than anecdote. (As, indeed, the review system acknowledges - hence the lack of "Certified" status.)

Second Darkness is a weaker one of Paizo's APs, and I think we all know that. Are you denying it? I thought that was your point as well - I've never seen anyone cite it as a stronger one of their APs. My point was it's a weaker one, and so is Tyranny, and they rank roughly that way - as weaker. I have never argued any level of fine precision here, just that you can tell roughly what people think of these adventures from the Reviews section - a better source of opinions than a thread like this.

It isn't, and I never said it wasn't. All I said was that that was the comparison that they'd have to face.

It was a fair interpretation of what you said, as I can't think of why you'd "make that challenge" in context with the rest of your posts on this topic if you didn't mean "and they didn't meet that challenge"?

Really? Because the second review makes mention of having made a "skim through of the meat of the adventure". So he, at least, hadn't read it. (And, equally, there is at least one review of Paizo's "Giantslayer" path that was published after only the first volume came out. So, yes, I'd be inclined to doubt that review, too.)

I am saying overall, taken as a whole, the Reviews section is composed of people who read or play the adventure and are giving fair, thoughtful, and thorough reviews of the products relative to a thread like this one. You can pick nits all you want, but that doesn't discount my overall point.

The review section is less than a year old.

Yes and no. EnWorld has always had lots of reviews, and Morrus consolidated them prior to making the reviews system itself. You can find the older reviews as well, and you will find they are generally consistent with the new ones for the same products.

I didn't say that. If you choose to draw that inference, that's on you.

It's fair for me to say it. It appears to be why you said the reviewers have not read the adventures; and why you said there are too few reviews for some products; and why you said fan boys can raid a review section to boost reviews. The entire theme of this debate is you taking the position that the Reviews section should be discounted - though you never discounted it before for Paizo products. Are you denying you want people to discount the Reviews section? If so, you're doing a poor job of communicating that.

The simple fact is that because there are haters and fanbois, because reviews are inevitably done by a self-selecting sample, because most reviews are done in the first flush of excitement and, most importantly, because tastes are subjective, any reviews system is necessarily imperfect.

OK SO WHAT IS THAT? You're talking out of both sides of your mouth now. First you denied it when I said, "Reviews section is being questioned with the implication it's flawed and shouldn't be trusted in any way." and now you're blatantly doing just that. Hey delericho - pick a position. You cannot play both sides on this one, you're arguing mutually exclusive positions. Either we should discount the Reviews section - in which case your going to have to put up some vague explanation for why you never had any issue with it when it was reviewing Paizo products for years (through the earlier reviews, and now). Or there is some value to that Reviews section - in which case I have no idea what your point is anymore.

Now that certainly doesn't mean it "can't be trusted in any way" (your words, not mine). But it means that it should be treated as it is: a somewhat-useful, somewhat-unreliable tool.

And a person's best bet is to either look only at products that have a lot of reviews (which, yes, includes PotA) or find one or more reviewers he generally agrees with and read what they have to say.

And that's all I'm saying. As I said up-thread, I'm still reading PotA so I'm not qualified to give anything more than a very provisional opinion on it. And I made sure when doing so to state clearly that it should therefore be taken with a big pinch of salt.

OK fair enough. Then it seems like you did a lot of work to discount the Reviews section only to finally admit it does have value for the very products we're discussing in this thread (the WOTC ones - which all have lots of reviews).

 

[Mistwell]

I know Paizo use freelancers as ell but they have around 25 ppl working direct for them on rpg materials iirc. They make in house splat books as well.

Wotc has something like 8 to 15 people working direct on D&D

Last count was 29. They are listed here, and I also previously replied to you with a list of those names, and you responded to that reply, so you knew that.

Next?

and they have not produced a single book outside the core rules. I know they havw consulted or written the overall arc of the adventures. Theres no 5E equivilent of Ultimate Magic/Combat or The races book. If you don't like the Realms or AP type adventures theres not a lot in 5E for you.

If they didn't outsource though we would have even less. 1 maybe 2 books full stop.

Doesn't really bother me who produces the material but theres not alot to excitw me or in the pipeline. LMoP was good but I have resorted to the OGL again for 5E support.

None of this has ANYTHING to do with the topic as far as I can tell. Why would "do people unfairly use the word outsource for one company and not the other dependent solely on which company it is?" have anything to do with whether or not they have products enough product or the type of product you want? If you think what you're saying is related to what I am saying, please make the connection. It looks like you're blurting out arguments about the price of tea in China. OK, we get it, you are not happy about the type and quantity of product - there are lots of thread about that topic, but how is this thread about that topic?

 

[Mistwell]

OK Mistwell I was at work on the cell phone earlier. Its good to see your opinion on the Savage Tide Adventure Path. IMHO that its probably one of the best APs ever made or at least the 1st half of it.

Would you recommend getting PotA? Assuming the postage on Amazon to NZ is not to much I'll buy it based on your recommendation alone. Buy or not to buy that is the question.

I don't know yet. So far I like the beginning, but it might get terrible after that. I don't feel right in recommending it until I have at least played through more of it.

 

[delericho]

The entire theme of this debate is you taking the position that the Reviews section should be discounted

No, the entire theme of this "debate" is that you chose to pick a fight with me over some double standard that you imagine I'm using against WotC.

Please go and have that fight with someone else.

 

[Jester David]

My only disagreement was about the choice of comparisons. Saying a new adventure is "better than Second Darkness" doesn't tell me anything useful - at the very least I need to know how much better it is.

True, because the bar is so long. By the same measure, "not as good as Savage Tide/RotRL" also doesn't say much.

Really, comparing adventures in general is kinda tricky. They're so subjective and have their own strengths and weaknesses. A review of an adventure should focus on that adventure and not it's place in the adventuring hierarchy. Just because an adventure isn't as good as another adventure also doesn't mean it can't be fun to play through.

 

[Zardnaar]

Last count was 29. They are listed here, and I also previously replied to you with a list of those names, and you responded to that reply, so you knew that.

Next?



None of this has ANYTHING to do with the topic as far as I can tell. Why would "do people unfairly use the word outsource for one company and not the other dependent solely on which company it is?" have anything to do with whether or not they have products enough product or the type of product you want? If you think what you're saying is related to what I am saying, please make the connection. It looks like you're blurting out arguments about the price of tea in China. OK, we get it, you are not happy about the type and quantity of product - there are lots of thread about that topic, but how is this thread about that topic?

I'm not using it in that way you are inventing it yourself. Paizo outsources stuff so does WoTC. Paizo however does produce stuff in house and they have a lot more variety in the stuff they make and more staff working directly on the RPG. YOu numbers seem to include things like admin and freelancers. If you apply the same criteria to Paizo the number climbs up to 50+ staff and that doesn't include the freelancers.

Paizo is making to much crap IMHO but you at least have the choce to biuy it or not or get the stuff you do like. With WoTC APs are your only choice so far (of mixed quality) and even when the Sword Coast book lands everything is in FR. Paizo does make generic non Golarion books as well.

Note I am not exactly a raving Paizo fanboy either and I do not expect D&D to match their production. I have not bought anything off Paizo for 2-3 years the last PDF was Ultimate Campaign. Something a bit more than what is available would be nice and its not like I would like a lot. 1 generic splat book and maybe a monster manual type book next year.

I used to look forward to or get excited about Dragon and Dungeon for example. For those people who suffered through 4Es crappy adventures I suppose WoTC copying Paizo and making some half decent AP type adventures twice per year is great but I have had APs since about 2002's (2003?) The Shackled City. TSC was nto great but it was better than HotDQ so it doesn't help when promised quality over quantity they serve up a turkey of an adventure. PotA doesn't sound to bad but it doesn't sound great either.

Sword Coast book may or may not be good either as we barely play the Realms any more and have hardly touched it since 4E landed with the Spellplague. That really sucked the enthusiasm out of running the Realms where I might run Greyhawk or Glorarion over it.

 

[Mistwell]

I'm not using it in that way you are inventing it yourself. Paizo outsources stuff so does WoTC.

OK, that's one of the two issues we're discussing here (the other being reviews). You seem to agree with me the same standard should be applied to both. Mysteriously, I've never seen you claim Paizo outsources until now, though we've talked about this issue many times before.

Paizo however does produce stuff in house and they have a lot more variety in the stuff they make and more staff working directly on the RPG. YOu numbers seem to include things like admin and freelancers. If you apply the same criteria to Paizo the number climbs up to 50+ staff and that doesn't include the freelancers.

WOTC also produces stuff in house, and I am applying the same standard people apply to Paizo. We don't have have a list of personnel printed for us from either company - all we really have are company credits in books, and word of mouth estimates. According to credits, WOTC has 29 employees right now. It's not admin staff - they say what their job is in the credits, and we're not talking accounting and HR and legal and that sort of stuff - it's all editing and writing and art and production etc.. I don't know why it's constantly an uphill battle on this issue. It's 29 people in the credits. Why is that in dispute? Why can't people agree that if WOTC lists 29 people in the credits (not for another company, that's a second section in the credits, this is just for WOTC), then it's fair to say they have 29 people working on D&D?

Paizo is making to much crap IMHO but you at least have the choce to biuy it or not or get the stuff you do like. With WoTC APs are your only choice so far (of mixed quality) and even when the Sword Coast book lands everything is in FR. Paizo does make generic non Golarion books as well.

I disagree on the quantity of content Paizo has produced in this past year (it's somewhat similar to the quantity WOTC produced), but regardless I still am not seeing what this has to do with the topic. Again, it would not matter if Paizo maybe 100,000 products a year and WOTC made only 1. It's still never been connected to this topic. The quantity isn't connected to whether the label "outsourced" should be applied to one and not the other, nor is it related to whether reviews should or should not be used. Why do you keep bringing this topic up? What is your point relat

Cut more stuff about price of tea in China

Zard - why do you keep talking about this stuff in this thread? What thread do you think you are in, or how does it relate to the topic? I am really straining to figure out what your point is, unless you just want to change the topic?