D&D 5E (2014) PotA Worth Buying?

[Creamsteak]

Paizo authors wrote the WOTC adventures. When those identical authors write Pathfinder adventures, they don't get critiqued to the same level. I think that's the source of frustration here - WOTC literally can't win here. They go out of their way to hire people who also work for Paizo, and they're called outsourcers. And then when it comes to talking about the adventure itself, suddenly they're called WOTC adventures again, and compared unfavorably to Paizo adventures. It's a shifting standard, which always works out negative for WOTC depending on what portion of the topic is being discussed.

[MENTION=2525]Mistwell[/MENTION]

Hi, it's been a long time.

I think that PotA is genuinely inferior to some other sandboxes in a few different ways. I'm still enjoying running it, and my players are enjoying themselves, but it is literally more work on my part to fill out PotA and enrich it and provide the connectivity between places and events than Kingmaker. I think this has less to do with the individual specific authors and more to do with the goal of the module as a product and the current development of the game system. I'm enjoying 5e more than Pathfinder with my current group, and I don't believe I have a bias on this particular issue. I'd view Wizards more favourably even. I actually quite liked the way Henry explained the flaws with it. And I still enjoy this module so-far and am even running it twice at the same time.

 

[Mistwell]

[MENTION=2525]Mistwell[/MENTION]

Hi, it's been a long time.

I think that PotA is genuinely inferior to some other sandboxes in a few different ways. I'm still enjoying running it, and my players are enjoying themselves, but it is literally more work on my part to fill out PotA and enrich it and provide the connectivity between places and events than Kingmaker. I think this has less to do with the individual specific authors and more to do with the goal of the module as a product and the current development of the game system. I'm enjoying 5e more than Pathfinder with my current group, and I don't believe I have a bias on this particular issue. I'd view Wizards more favourably even. I actually quite liked the way Henry explained the flaws with it. And I still enjoy this module so-far and am even running it twice at the same time.

Fair enough. I have not heaped any praise on the adventure, and I have not said or implied that those who don't like it are in the wrong. I was only focusing on the double standards applied - specifically the same person calling it an "outsourced" adventure when it suits them in one context, and "a WOTC adventure" when it suits them in another, but not doing the same when those same authors write a Pathfinder product - and then also ignoring the reviews of it when it suits them, but being perfectly content with the reviews section for Paizo products. It should be one standard applied to outsourcing issues, and to review issues, for both companies. There is nothing special about either company which should result in different standards for what is or is not outsourced, and when reviews should be considered or not.

 

[MerricB]

In theory, Paizo and WotC are producing comparable numbers of adventures: one AP a year. Paizo also does the modules, but those are more niche and likely still exist as much to support RPG Superstar as anything else. They don't do that much more.

It's actually two APs a year, which I'm sure you already knew.

Paizo's non-AP module output has dropped to almost nothing. (And then there's the OP adventures, which Paizo and Wizards produce about the same amount of per year).

How much space do Wizards adventures save on statblocks, btw?

Cheers!

 

[Zardnaar]

Fair enough. I have not heaped any praise on the adventure, and I have not said or implied that those who don't like it are in the wrong. I was only focusing on the double standards applied - specifically the same person calling it an "outsourced" adventure when it suits them in one context, and "a WOTC adventure" when it suits them in another, but not doing the same when those same authors write a Pathfinder product - and then also ignoring the reviews of it when it suits them, but being perfectly content with the reviews section for Paizo products. It should be one standard applied to outsourcing issues, and to review issues, for both companies. There is nothing special about either company which should result in different standards for what is or is not outsourced, and when reviews should be considered or not.

I think Paizo gets away with it because they produce stuff in house and have more variety. WoTC is only producings adventures so far and everything is in the Realms even once the Sword Coast book lands. Theres no generic splat books or a book on crunch as such.

 

[MerricB]

...and everything is in the Realms...

Does Paizo produce much non-Golarion stuff for Pathfinder?

Cheers!

 

[Jester David]

It's actually two APs a year, which I'm sure you already knew.

Wow, yeah. Brain fart there. Not sure what my fingers were thinking.

Paizo's non-AP module output has dropped to almost nothing.

Yeah, there's the RPG Superstar one and occasionally another one. This year there's an occult one to tie into the hardback book. They do seem to be increasingly redundant. Apart from Dragon's Demand they've been fairly forgettable of late.

And then there's the OP adventures, which Paizo and Wizards produce about the same amount of per year.

Agreed. About two per month plus specials. Identical there.

How much space do Wizards adventures save on statblocks, btw?

Well, when Paizo can they also just reference the books. But modifying a creature is a little trickier than just adding 1 or 2 lines.

But lemme reference a random AP (aka the one beside me because I'm running it in a week). Looks like in this AP they'd have saved a full 7 pages (rounded up) on statblocks, and possibly more because Pathfinder includes a mini-statblock referencing xp, tactics, morale, and hp. Likely closer to 8 or 9 pages. That's in the 50-odd page AP volume. So in three volumes (150-pages total) it would have easily saved 24 pages. So PotA has 120-pages of full adventure is really comparable to three volumes of a Pathfinder AP. So, excluding statblocks, a full AP will easily have twice the content of PotA.
Now, if PotA didn't have as much filler (converting to other worlds, concept art, the genasi, the prequel adventures, etc, it could easily have had another 50-60 pages of content. So a storyline adventure book really has room for the same amount of adventure as 4 Pathfinder APs.

 

[MerricB]

Well, when Paizo can they also just reference the books. But modifying a creature is a little trickier than just adding 1 or 2 lines.

But lemme reference a random AP (aka the one beside me because I'm running it in a week). Looks like in this AP they'd have saved a full 7 pages (rounded up) on statblocks, and possibly more because Pathfinder includes a mini-statblock referencing xp, tactics, morale, and hp. Likely closer to 8 or 9 pages. That's in the 50-odd page AP volume. So in three volumes (150-pages total) it would have easily saved 24 pages. So PotA has 120-pages of full adventure is really comparable to three volumes of a Pathfinder AP. So, excluding statblocks, a full AP will easily have twice the content of PotA.
Now, if PotA didn't have as much filler (converting to other worlds, concept art, the genasi, the prequel adventures, etc, it could easily have had another 50-60 pages of content. So a storyline adventure book really has room for the same amount of adventure as 4 Pathfinder APs.

Thank you!

I'd say the biggest space-hog in a Pathfinder AP would be the NPC statblocks.

Cheers!

 

[Jester David]

Thank you!

I'd say the biggest space-hog in a Pathfinder AP would be the NPC statblocks.

Cheers!

It can be, especially at high levels. But 5e NPC statblocks aren't tiny either, and there's a lot of pages of NPCs in PotA (which I didn't include in the adventure page count of that book), almost 20 pages or so. Plus new monsters.

 

[Henry]

Does Paizo produce much non-Golarion stuff for Pathfinder?

Cheers!

I don't speak for him, but it sounds as if a bit of a missspeak to the intended point; The difference being, WotC is focused for now on the Sword Coast North, whereas by contrast Paizo's APs roam the breadth of regions from Egyptian analogues to Spanish Main analogues, to horror settings, to sword-and-laser, and back again. It would be a comparison if Paizo's last three adventure paths were set in Varisia only. The Realms are just as varied as Golarion, but since The Sword Coast North is their best return on investment by far, the SCN is the place to be - but it doesn't lead to as much change of pace from campaign to campaign.

It's why I look forward to Rage of Demons, it's at least not focused on Sword Coast North solely any more.

 

[Henry]

Just want to make sure we're talking about the same adventure here.

A lot of NPCs, even relatively minor ones, have motivations spelled out for them. There are plenty of opportunities for roleplay, to the point that one of my more combat-oriented players has asked a couple times, "So, are we going to fight something tonight?"

Granted, I get that sandboxes aren't everyone's cup of tea, and can seem simple compared to the mapped-out machinations of the big bad in a true AP. Different stokes, and all. Just offering a counterpoint in regard to roleplay opportunities in the adventure.

Different strokes and all, but I compare the opening of Princes to even the opening of Tyranny of Dragons, and Tyranny opens with more of a bang (admittedly, some people found its buy-in TOO drastic, maybe that's why it was dialed back. But compare to Runelords' Swallowtail festival Opener, or the rather dramatic but railroady Skull & Shackles opener, or Giantslayers opener, which made you feel honestly a part of the community before circumstance pushed it in another direction