Pounce for standard actions?

[kitcik]

The question seems to be, can a creature with Pounce decide to forgo its use?

That is, can he Charge, then take a single attack instead of the "full attack action" the Pounce entitles them to.

Or am I misunderstanding something?

You are misunderstanding.

Let's stick with a single example to make it simpler.

A ToB maneuver generally requires a standard action to use. A charge is a full round action comprised of a double move and a single attack. Normally, you cannot use a standard action maneuver as part of a charge.

Pounce allows you to have a charge comprised of a double move and a full attack. Since a full attack takes longer (under normal circumstances) than a standard action, can you substitute a standard action attack (such as a ToB maneuver) for the full attack?

I believe RAW says no, but it may be reasonable to allow if not abused.

 

[Greenfield]

Actually, if they move more than 5 feet they get one attack, whether with TWF or multiple natural weapons. That's why the Pounce feat/ability was designed.

Flyby and Ride by are special cases for Charge, if I'm not mistaken.

 

[Greenfield]

Feeling stupid here (again). You nice people have a talent for setting me straight, and I thank you for it.

I'd say no, to the original question. There are combat maneuvers that call for a Standard Action that can't/shouldn't be allowed in place of Pounce at the end of charge.

I was thinking of things like Whirlwind that are full round actions in and of themselves.

 

[emoplato]

Feeling stupid here (again). You nice people have a talent for setting me straight, and I thank you for it.

I'd say no, to the original question. There are combat maneuvers that call for a Standard Action that can't/shouldn't be allowed in place of Pounce at the end of charge.

I was thinking of things like Whirlwind that are full round actions in and of themselves.

Well, how about spring attack to move past a struck enemy or the manticore belt from Magic of Incarnum(A spray of 1d6+1/2str spikes equal to your essentia invested, only can invest 7 at L15 with feats, at your highest base attack bonus)?

 

[Empirate]

No, because a single attack isn't necessarily equatable to a standard action. A person with TWF or natural weapons can attack multiple times in a standard action. Heck, Flyby attack allows an attack in the move action. The question since a full-attack requires more time and effort to do than a standard action, could someone with pounce use an option that would be a standard action that still involves an attack of sort instead of the full attack. I think of it as like someone choosing a double move instead of a typical standard action, move action turn.

TWF or natural weapons don't allow multiple attacks on a standard action, only on a full attack action, which is a rull-round action. Flyby Attack specifically allows a standard action taken at any point of your move, for which you still need to take a move action.
Spring Attack demands you move at least 5' both before AND after making a single attack (again taking an additional move action, since you move more than 5' total in the round), so it's incompatible with a charge, which is a full-round action all its own.


What WotC never got entirely clear was the fact that "attack" and "attack action" as well as "full attack" and "full attack action" aren't the same things.

An attack action is a standard action which allows you to make an attack. It's just not the only action you could take which allows you to make an attack. There are a myriad things which allow you to make an attack, but don't require an attack action (attacks of opportunity, for example, or delivering a touch spell you just cast).

Similarly, there are a few things which allow you to take a full attack, without taking a full attack action, pounce being one of them. With Pounce, you can make a full attack while taking a different full-round action, namely, the Charge action.

Clear?

This is not splitting hairs, it's an important distinction.

 

[emoplato]

TWF or natural weapons don't allow multiple attacks on a standard action, only on a full attack action, which is a rull-round action. Flyby Attack specifically allows a standard action taken at any point of your move, for which you still need to take a move action.
Spring Attack demands you move at least 5' both before AND after making a single attack (again taking an additional move action, since you move more than 5' total in the round), so it's incompatible with a charge, which is a full-round action all its own.


What WotC never got entirely clear was the fact that "attack" and "attack action" as well as "full attack" and "full attack action" aren't the same things.

An attack action is a standard action which allows you to make an attack. It's just not the only action you could take which allows you to make an attack. There are a myriad things which allow you to make an attack, but don't require an attack action (attacks of opportunity, for example, or delivering a touch spell you just cast).

Similarly, there are a few things which allow you to take a full attack, without taking a full attack action, pounce being one of them. With Pounce, you can make a full attack while taking a different full-round action, namely, the Charge action.

Clear?

This is not splitting hairs, it's an important distinction.

But I have always seen in the books talking about single secondary attacks plus a primary in a standard action and the TWF feats never say anything about having to use it in a full-attack. They say that for flurry of blows which for some reason is treated as having it for qualifications for other things oddly enough, mainly I thought so monks couldn't pull a possibility off 20 or more attacks plus they can add full strength. I have always thought it was a trade off thing but this other doesn't even make sense with what I have read.
Yes, I understand the framing but it doesn't dismiss the availability of time/effort, nor the option. I completely get your position and really I just wanted to know if it was a possibility.

 

[Wyvernhand]

These rules?

Full Attack

If you get more than one attack per round because your base attack bonus is high enough, because you fight with two weapons or a double weapon or for some special reason you must use a full-round action to get your additional attacks. You do not need to specify the targets of your attacks ahead of time. You can see how the earlier attacks turn out before assigning the later ones.

Only things where are explicitly exceptions to this rule (Snap Kick, Slashing Fury) ever allow you to make more than a single attack during anything less than a full attack.

Also, since you can charge as a standard action (assuming you are denied your full round action via Slow or surprise round), you COULD pounce trigger pounce with less than a full round action charge. Its not common, though.

 

[emoplato]

Well, no wonder multi-attack builds suck under strict rules, they work for all those feats only to be limited to a full-attack when normal fighters there can attack multiple times anyway. I guess I wasn't in the loop on that house-rule or it just simply was ignored when I played. Thank-you for the information, but it still seems to be open use whether pounce can be reduced to a standard action attack at a DM's discretion.

 

[the Jester]

No, dude. The rules are extremely clear that you only get multiple attacks when you take the full attack action. There is no doubt. There is no wiggle room.

It sounds like you want affirmation, not discussion.

 

[Empirate]

Well, no wonder multi-attack builds suck under strict rules, they work for all those feats only to be limited to a full-attack when normal fighters there can attack multiple times anyway.

Huh? TWF, Rapid Shot and the like still give you more attacks than you'd normally have, regardless of BAB.

I guess I wasn't in the loop on that house-rule or it just simply was ignored when I played.

House-rule? What are you talking about? Wyvernhand quoted the SRD.

Thank-you for the information, but it still seems to be open use whether pounce can be reduced to a standard action attack at a DM's discretion.

DM's discretion? Where are you pulling those from? The partial charge is extremely limited in its application. Characters can pretty much only make a partial charge if they're staggered (slowed, or with more nonlethal damage taken than HP remaining), or during a surprise round, or if they're a Zombie. That's no DM discretion, it's part of the rules that apply to everybody.