Aust Diamondew
First Post
I keep saying this over and over again if you're having problems with power gamers try just using the core rules.
Power Gaming
- Thread starter Digital M@
- Start date
shadow
First Post
Man I would like to meet some powergamers...It seems like every group that I play with is all into this low powered "storytelling" style of game. I've seen too many masochistic, "woe is me" drama queens; I could use a good munchkin style game! 
(Not to the humor impared - the above was partially in jest!)
Seriously, it sounds like your playing style just doesn't jive with the rest of the groups. You might want to look for a different group. From my experience, there are just as many (if not more) "anti-power gamers" out there as there are power-gamers.
(Not to the humor impared - the above was partially in jest!)
Seriously, it sounds like your playing style just doesn't jive with the rest of the groups. You might want to look for a different group. From my experience, there are just as many (if not more) "anti-power gamers" out there as there are power-gamers.
Digital [email="M@ said:
I'm turning into a broken record -
1. DON'T USE NON-CORE RULES!
2. DON'T RUN 20th LEVEL GAMES
It's just not that complicated. You can have a good time with DnD at lower levels without throwing gobs of feat options at players. I could be more constructive but I'm not sure I have it in me to care anymore about this either. "Monkey Grip" !? Sheesh - I thought that was a joke.
MoogleEmpMog
First Post
Aust Diamondew said:
Based on the fact that it was demonstrated multiple times in THE EXACT &^%*&% THREAD that the core rules produced a more powerful character than the one who was causing the "problem?" :nonexistantrolleyessmiley:
The only reason you'll have less of a problem with power gamers by using "core only" is because any self-respecting power gamer will find a game that doesn't make a completely arbitrary distinction like that.
Either that, or they'll make a (no worries, completely core) druid and rampage around your nerfed campaign world until they grow tired of it or you actually show some spine and restrict based on individual abilities.
MoogleEmpMog said:
I would suggest that it's based on the fact that the fewer rules you have to manage in the game the easier it is to manage powers.
MoogleEmpMog said:
It's not an arbitrary distinction. Any self-respecting gamer of any type plays in an INTERESTING game above all else. Throwing gobs of powers from splatbooks at players in a desperate attempt to keep them interested is pathetic and doomed.
MoogleEmpMog said:
This is the same issue as it was in 1E - although then, instead of feats, it was based off of XP awards and magic items. The only "nerfed campaign worlds" are ones that have their soul and integrity nerfed by a DM who can't control it. Sticking to the core rules until you understand them is good advice.
MoogleEmpMog
First Post
gizmo33 said:
I agree, the fewer rules you have IN THE GAME does make this easier.
However, the following parties have the SAME NUMBER OF RULES actually IN PLAY:
1. Human fighter 3, elf wizard 3, dwarf druid 3 and halfling rogue 3.
2. Elan psychic warrior 3, human shugenja 3, trollkin fast hero 3 and hobgoblin greenbond 2.
Those rules come from multiple sources, but they don't amount to any greater number in the course of play.
gizmo33 said:
As someone who would much rather play HERO or SilCore (or d20 Modern) than D&D anyway, and who is blessed to live in a region rich with RPG groups, I'd never bother with a core-only game. I'd assume that either the DM was, fair enough, just learning the ropes, or that having learned them he'd become stuck in an inaccurate and arbitrary mindset that the D&D core rules are in some way superior or better balanced.
I'd play in a game with restrictions based on flavor, however.
gizmo33 said:
'Until you understand them' I can see; there's no harm in that. However, the usual core rules advocate doesn't qualify his statement in this way.
Dragonblade
Adventurer
Digital M@ said:
See, this mentality is the actual problem. This notion that choosing one feat over another is going to break the game down. Now, granted I'm assuming that these people aren't taking totally unbalanced feats from some third party product. But seriously, optimizing your character and having a good role-play experience are not mutually exclusive.
If I were you, I'd be looking at why the rest of the party is so weak compared to this guy's pretty tame "powergaming", and why the rest of the players seem unable to keep up.
William Ronald
Explorer
I think that each gaming group, including the GM and players, have to find their own comfort zone with rules and options. I have seen well made characters using multiple rules, run by players who are good roleplayers. Similarly, I have seen characters made from multiple rules played poorly. I think a DM has to decide what will be used at the gaming table.
Do I try to create effective characters? Yes. However, I think that it is important to consider all aspects of a character -- from the numbers to the personalities. As shadow indicated, there are people who take the roleplaying aspect of the game to an extreme and play character flaws instead of characters. I think a certain amount of balance is a good way to handle this. (Also, I think villains and monsters can be optimized. There is the saying about a hero being judged on the quality of his foes. Also, I have found that NPCs whom the players can interact with can make great villains. Few things can encourage roleplaying as giving the PCs a nemesis whom they love to hate.)
If something seems too good, you can always place limits on it. There can be campaign restrictisons, in terms of feats and prestige classes. There is no reason why you have to offer EVERYTHING in the core rules books. For example, a very primitive campaign setting may have severe restrictions in terms of equipment, classes, and prestige classes.
DigitalM@, I think you can find a group that works with your style. Perhaps it might be best to use the core rules, and then decided on any books. (It is always important to get the basics right. ) I think any set of rules can be stretched. However, I think the flaws lie not in the rules, but in ourselves. I think it is important for people to find players and GMs wtih whom they are comfortable. I hope the advice in this thread helps you. Also, talk to other players and DMs. As a veteran player of D&D, I find that it is much easier to share ideas than it was even 10 years ago.
Do I try to create effective characters? Yes. However, I think that it is important to consider all aspects of a character -- from the numbers to the personalities. As shadow indicated, there are people who take the roleplaying aspect of the game to an extreme and play character flaws instead of characters. I think a certain amount of balance is a good way to handle this. (Also, I think villains and monsters can be optimized. There is the saying about a hero being judged on the quality of his foes. Also, I have found that NPCs whom the players can interact with can make great villains. Few things can encourage roleplaying as giving the PCs a nemesis whom they love to hate.)
If something seems too good, you can always place limits on it. There can be campaign restrictisons, in terms of feats and prestige classes. There is no reason why you have to offer EVERYTHING in the core rules books. For example, a very primitive campaign setting may have severe restrictions in terms of equipment, classes, and prestige classes.
DigitalM@, I think you can find a group that works with your style. Perhaps it might be best to use the core rules, and then decided on any books. (It is always important to get the basics right. ) I think any set of rules can be stretched. However, I think the flaws lie not in the rules, but in ourselves. I think it is important for people to find players and GMs wtih whom they are comfortable. I hope the advice in this thread helps you. Also, talk to other players and DMs. As a veteran player of D&D, I find that it is much easier to share ideas than it was even 10 years ago.
Zenodotus of Ephesus
First Post
Digital M@ said:
Why don't you get all of the encounters prepped and then write up a couple of paragraphs for between each of them as narative links. Then when you're reading them out quickly between those encounters maybe one or more of the players will want it to be different than you are reading it. Maybe you can coax them into interacting in non-combat situations on the sly.
Powergamers – one solution – run a low magic campaign (I used it once). A campaign where utility items are available here and there but magic weapons and armor are almost unheard of.
A very large town might have one or two utility items in it. (everburning torches for example) and only the largest cities would have even a single more powerful item (like a small power rod or staff) and of course would be wielded by a powerful individual (more powerful that the PC’s can handle). Smaller communities; people there may have never seen or heard of a magic item in their lives; ever.
The big metropolises have more magic; but at premium prices and only a few available with a rare few casters to make them.
This requires some tweaking – such as creating a “Priest” NPC class (an expert that is essentially a cleric without magic). PC casters would be handled simply; if they start casting too much someone will see – and perhaps get scared. Scared enough to get the populace (along with town guard and local nobility) to rise up against “The evil magic casting witch” that has come to destroy them and burn Pelor’s temple to the ground (doesn’t need to be true - typical superstitious overreaction sort of a thing)
If they take metamagic feats and start cranking out items suddenly powerful badguys want them in their towers as prisoners making things for them. Good guys get afraid; and want them to stop (by force if necessary)
Some may say magic is a big part of DnD – well it is. But it is also a source of abuse; without magic powergamers can’t powergame to real effect really – because everyone has what they have.
You could also do things such as ensure that a knightly order of goodguys is everywhere; and if they get wind of a “powerful adventurer” that may have done something wrong (true or not) then their score of 20th level Paladins pays him a visit and lets him know a +20 BAB will smash his little 3d8 Sword to little tiny bits along with him (what was that class from CA; the something enforcer maybe; the radical goodguy; had the picture of him on some stairs with a greatsword in white armor (cool pic at that!)). Not to mention that as one becomes more powerful there are always those that resent it; those with power (other adventurers, royalty, politicians…)
Another way to take care of this – as others mention above – control the feats they take. They don’t like it – there’s the door. I think Monkey Grip is an incredibly stupid feat; incredibly stupid. At least the PC should have a sick STR score to do this; at least. There are plenty of other feats that are the same way. It helps to stay with WoTC stuff only as many other products have insane feats.
Also don’t forget; anything they can do so can you. A Battalion of Hobgoblins with Monkey grip, +6 Belts of Strength and large sized greatswords may stave off some powergaming. Perhaps a 15th level evil wizard commanding them…
And finally; in this case specifically; to one point; keep in mind large weapons are not commonplace. How many weapons smiths would actually make one? Or know how? Would they not charge a massive premium? (the PHB process are a guide mind you). How many large creatures out there (of lower levels) actually have masterwork or better quality weapons for that PC to take? IF there is – can the party actually take that thing on?
Powergaming can be attributed to the DM as well as players; you can’t powergame if you don’t have easy (and I mean easy) access to the things that make you uber powerful; such as magical large sized swords.
A very large town might have one or two utility items in it. (everburning torches for example) and only the largest cities would have even a single more powerful item (like a small power rod or staff) and of course would be wielded by a powerful individual (more powerful that the PC’s can handle). Smaller communities; people there may have never seen or heard of a magic item in their lives; ever.
The big metropolises have more magic; but at premium prices and only a few available with a rare few casters to make them.
This requires some tweaking – such as creating a “Priest” NPC class (an expert that is essentially a cleric without magic). PC casters would be handled simply; if they start casting too much someone will see – and perhaps get scared. Scared enough to get the populace (along with town guard and local nobility) to rise up against “The evil magic casting witch” that has come to destroy them and burn Pelor’s temple to the ground (doesn’t need to be true - typical superstitious overreaction sort of a thing)
If they take metamagic feats and start cranking out items suddenly powerful badguys want them in their towers as prisoners making things for them. Good guys get afraid; and want them to stop (by force if necessary)
Some may say magic is a big part of DnD – well it is. But it is also a source of abuse; without magic powergamers can’t powergame to real effect really – because everyone has what they have.
You could also do things such as ensure that a knightly order of goodguys is everywhere; and if they get wind of a “powerful adventurer” that may have done something wrong (true or not) then their score of 20th level Paladins pays him a visit and lets him know a +20 BAB will smash his little 3d8 Sword to little tiny bits along with him (what was that class from CA; the something enforcer maybe; the radical goodguy; had the picture of him on some stairs with a greatsword in white armor (cool pic at that!)). Not to mention that as one becomes more powerful there are always those that resent it; those with power (other adventurers, royalty, politicians…)
Another way to take care of this – as others mention above – control the feats they take. They don’t like it – there’s the door. I think Monkey Grip is an incredibly stupid feat; incredibly stupid. At least the PC should have a sick STR score to do this; at least. There are plenty of other feats that are the same way. It helps to stay with WoTC stuff only as many other products have insane feats.
Also don’t forget; anything they can do so can you. A Battalion of Hobgoblins with Monkey grip, +6 Belts of Strength and large sized greatswords may stave off some powergaming. Perhaps a 15th level evil wizard commanding them…
And finally; in this case specifically; to one point; keep in mind large weapons are not commonplace. How many weapons smiths would actually make one? Or know how? Would they not charge a massive premium? (the PHB process are a guide mind you). How many large creatures out there (of lower levels) actually have masterwork or better quality weapons for that PC to take? IF there is – can the party actually take that thing on?
Powergaming can be attributed to the DM as well as players; you can’t powergame if you don’t have easy (and I mean easy) access to the things that make you uber powerful; such as magical large sized swords.
