Power Gaming

[Digital M@]

I have DMed a good bit and this is not near the worst of power gaming, nor is it impossible to deal with, but I was hoping at third level not to have to deal with it. Powergaming is really the curse of modern day gaming, especially in d20. The game has become as much of a detailed skirmish level strategic war game as an RPG. The rules are set to grant special power after special power. This has always been part of the game, but it has grown significantly.

I feel a bit better after ranting and hearing all of the responces and will deal with it and roll on. I will also hand pick my players from now on and not game if I can't find the mix I want. For now I will remember reputation and ensure the character is aware that people are hearing stories of the man wielding a sword as large as a horse, I can modify many encounters to have lots more pathetic minions, use more sorcerers and maximize hit points.

Since the party is large and have huge stat bonuses I can nerf the XP awarded for a slower progression. After all a EL 3 is not really the challenge intended when the average player stat bonuses add up to +14 and they have tweaked characters in the party.

Anyway, thatnk for the feedback (even the negative) and keep it coming if you have more to share.

 

[Impeesa]

To all those who absolutely despise powergamers: are you trying to say, then, that you would greatly prefer having players whose thought processes run something like this?

"Boy, that [feat/prc/whatever] looks like it would be just perfect for making my character better at [fighting/casting/talking/whatever]. I better not take it."

Or alternatively,

"Those supplements might have stuff that'd go really well with my character. Maybe I'll check them out... on second thought, meh.. that sounds like work."

I mean, seriously. A good optimizer (and by 'good' I mean 'not a cheater') is a joy to play with, if you don't have casual players with unusually weak characters causing the problems with group balance that you cite.

--Impeesa--

 

[Digital M@]

"a good optimizer", that is a perfect example of the change in the game that I was talking about. The game is becoming a math problem, one where players sit and gather whatever they can to get the most powerful solution. It is not about playing tha game anymore for many players, they have their path choosen out all the way to level 20. What happens in the game does not matter, it is about obtaining some level of power and ability like you are playing Diablo. Instead of enjoying the game too many people are trying to beat it. I say OK, you win, you beat it, now what? Great you can kill a dragon in two rounds all by yourself, now what do you want to do? Want to go beat up some children? I don't get the mentality.


And yes, I actually had a player come to me with a character concept and he explained where he thought it might interfere with game play. I looked over the material, saw how the game was going to go and said, fine by me. He has choosen several times in games past not to min/max on feats for the sake of the game. I try not to limit books and have allowed all WotC books, but next semester when/if I start a new game, it will be with the core books only. Players who are not interested in that would be players I am not interested in having.

D&D is the perfect combination of RPG and videogame. In my day it was not about making the biggest baddest character ever made, actually for the most part, there were not rules to support it. It was more about getting togther with friends for some fun and the game was the focus of the fun.

 

[Storyteller01]

To all those who absolutely despise powergamers: are you trying to say, then, that you would greatly prefer having players whose thought processes run something like this?

"Boy, that [feat/prc/whatever] looks like it would be just perfect for making my character better at [fighting/casting/talking/whatever]. I better not take it."

Or alternatively,

"Those supplements might have stuff that'd go really well with my character. Maybe I'll check them out... on second thought, meh.. that sounds like work."

I mean, seriously. A good optimizer (and by 'good' I mean 'not a cheater') is a joy to play with, if you don't have casual players with unusually weak characters causing the problems with group balance that you cite.


--Impeesa--

Good optimizers are great. It means I don't have to spend all day looking for a rule; odds are he already knows it.

Munchkinism (WARNING: mini-rant) is another story. Players who use multiple templates from three different books, two quickplates (mini-templates) from another, plus materials (metals, components, etc) from another book, PLUS half his feats come from some web site he found while working out his ultimate ECL 7 1st level combo can be...annoying.

Personally, the posters example isn't the worst, nor is it impossible to deal with. If anyone is a skill monkey, focus an adventure on them once in awhile. Everyone gets their fn, and your powergamer now knows how it feels to be in the background. don't do this as a punishment; everyone deserves their time to shine.

MHO

 

[SweeneyTodd]

"a good optimizer", that is a perfect example of the change in the game that I was talking about. The game is becoming a math problem, one where players sit and gather whatever they can to get the most powerful solution. It is not about playing tha game anymore for many players, they have their path choosen out all the way to level 20. What happens in the game does not matter, it is about obtaining some level of power and ability like you are playing Diablo. Instead of enjoying the game too many people are trying to beat it. I say OK, you win, you beat it, now what? Great you can kill a dragon in two rounds all by yourself, now what do you want to do? Want to go beat up some children? I don't get the mentality.

Well, the system rewards this behavior. Many possible builds exist for characters, and some are much more powerful than others. It takes a fairly strong social contract and up-front communication to make the game be about something other than defeating challenges and gaining power.

Some people handle this by restricting the material players can use, some by making sure their players aren't interested in doing this, and some by using different systems entirely. Any of these can work.

 

[pogre]

Matt,

After meeting you up at Games Day and having a chat, I feel like I can give you some advice from another guy in a college town. Get some townies in your game - drop the college kids. There are some awesome college players, but you know as I do they leave for Summer and always leave in a couple of years. Constant recruiting is no fun. There are lots of interesting people who are living in DeKalb who are older adults who will make for a more rewarding game.

Try converting some friends or look for a couple of professors. It will take time, but once you get a couple of players - they will have friends who want to play - who will have friends who want to play - and suddenly you are turning people away from the table. I played an entire Summer with three players only and it was not bad - we were just waiting for the right mix. Now, I am turning folks away on a regular basis. The game has been running continuously for a few years and it's pretty rewarding.

Finally, since the game is off for a couple of months at least I do expect a certain blue dragon to get painted in the near future

If you are ever down by Champaign give me a heads up.

Take care,

pogre

 

[Timeboxer]

"a good optimizer", that is a perfect example of the change in the game that I was talking about. The game is becoming a math problem, one where players sit and gather whatever they can to get the most powerful solution. It is not about playing tha game anymore for many players, they have their path choosen out all the way to level 20.

Here's the mentality I don't get: That somehow character optimization and good roleplaying are mutually exclusive, and that a movement toward one inherently requires a movement away from the other.

 

[resistor]

Count your blessings. At least power gamers are easy to entertain!

Seriously, though, power gamers are not the worst thing in the world. Sure, you might have to modify some encounters to compensate for the fact that you have someone who's good at dishing out damage, but you always know how to keep him/her interested in the game: give him/her a chance to show off his/her powers!

As the DM, it's your job to allocate "spotlight" time to every character, so that their players feel engaged in the game. The power gamer has just made your job easier.

 

[ohGr]

It is technically a 1 handed weapon. So you can use a large bastard sword in 2 hands (-2 penalty to attack) for an average gain of 3 points of damage more per attack. Taking monkey grip, he moves up to HUGE bastard swords, gaining another average 4 damage for a -2 attack.

This is the second most common misconception about Monkey Grip. A medium-size character cannot wield a huge weapon using Monkey Grip, as it only applies to weapons one size category larger than you.

Monkey Grip
You are able to use a larger weapon than other people your size.
Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: You can use melee weapons one size category larger than you are with a -2 penalty on the attack roll, but the amount of effort it takes you to use the weapon does not change. For instance, a Large longsword (a one-handed weapon for a Large creature) is considered a two-handed weapon for a Medium creature that does not have this feat. For a Medium creature that has this feat, it is still considered a one-handed weapon. You can wield a larger light weapon as a light weapon, or a larger two-handed weapon in two hands. You cannot wield a larger weapon in your off hand, and you cannot use this feat with a double weapon.
Normal: You can use a melee weapon one size category larger than you are with a -2 penalty on the attack roll, and the amount of effort it takes to use the weapon increases. A larger light weapon is considered a one-handed weapon, a larger one-handed weapon is considered a two-handed weapon, and you cannot use a larger two-handed weapon at all.

 

[Barendd Nobeard]

Here's the mentality I don't get: That somehow character optimization and good roleplaying are mutually exclusive, and that a movement toward one inherently requires a movement away from the other.

They certainly don't have to be mutually exclusive.

But, for some reason, in my experience they seem to be mutually exclusive in 95% of players. And, further, it just leads to the "optimizer" making sure everyone has an optimized character and then wanting to direct the battlefield during every combat.

Thankfully, we now have the minis game. Where, hopefully, the optimizers will go to get their battlefield jollies.

Don't get me wrong. I don't make ineffective characters on purpose. I do try to make them good at what they do. But the cherry-picking prestige (and regular) class levels just to eek out the maximum theoretical damage is blah. I have actually played under a DM who would sit there for two minutes to figure out the best possible value for Power Attack. I mean, he would literally sit there and out loud walk through the calculus to pick the right number. God forbid he just estimate and say, "He'll power attack for 2." No, it's two minutes of math and a mini-debate to decide whether it's better to power attack for 2 or 3--for that one attack in the combat.

That's the "it's become a math problem" that's annoying to some of us.

But if you like math, have at it & enjoy!