Power level of Arch-Devils in BOVD vs Tome of Horrors.

[Flexor the Mighty!]

Based on the web preview necromancer games put out do the devils seem to be on the same playing field? I'm curious becuase the Creature Catalog versions were so much more powerful than the official versions from what I'm told.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Flexor mate!

Based on the web preview necromancer games put out do the devils seem to be on the same playing field? I'm curious becuase the Creature Catalog versions were so much more powerful than the official versions from what I'm told.

I imagine they simply wanted some sort of consistency.

The original Creature Catalogue versions attributed Intermediate Deity-like power to beings like Demogorgon; Asmodeus and Orcus. With Lesser Power to weaker Princes and Archdevils and Demipower to Lords and Dukes.

The Book of Vile Darkness equates the upper echelons with Quasi-deities (although from what I have seen Asmodeus is more akin to a relatively weak Demipower in that book).

I would suggest adding Quasi-deity status to any between 20-29HD; Demi-deity status to any between 30-39HD; Lesser Deity status to those between 40-59HD; Intermediate Deity status to those within the 60-79HD range and Greater Power to those with between 80-119HD.

So at 35HD you could have Asmodeus as a Demipower. At 70HD he would be an Intermediate Power etc.

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

Whoa there Krusty!!

I don't have the D&Dg book so you are losing me there. I guess what I'm curious about is stuff like this. Is the version of say Moloch in the TOH, more powerful than Dispater or one of the other Arch-Devils in the BOVD. Based on the write ups of Lucifer & Moloch I'm getting the impression they are more on the power level of the Creature Catalog writeups than the BOVD.

 

[Darkness]

Upper_Krust, that's an interesting breakdown. I don't know these guys' HD, though, and so, can't comment too much on it. (I think I heard that they are all in the 30s or so - at least in the BoVD, that is...)

BTW, has the Book of Vile Darkness reached the UK yet?
And if not, any guess as to when it will?

(I'm asking because I want to be better able to guess when it'll come out in continental Europe, ya know. )

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Flexor mate!

Whoa there Krusty!!

I don't have the D&Dg book so you are losing me there.

Just meant in general terms, rather than specifically.

I guess what I'm curious about is stuff like this. Is the version of say Moloch in the TOH, more powerful than Dispater or one of the other Arch-Devils in the BOVD. Based on the write ups of Lucifer & Moloch I'm getting the impression they are more on the power level of the Creature Catalog writeups than the BOVD.

They do seem to have a lot of integrated spellcaster levels.

Using my homebrew method of determining Challenge Rating the Tome of Horrors Moloch is virtually identical in power to the Book of Vile Darkness Asmodeus.

As far as I can tell the major discrepancy is going to be the integrated class levels. So if you want to drop Moloch to BoVD standards or raise Asmodeus to ToH standards I suggest this is the factor you tinker with.

eg. Drop Moloch to 20th-level Sorceror (rather than 27th Cleric/27th-Sorceror) or (vice versa) raise Asmodeus to 32nd Cleric/32nd Sorceror (rather than simply 20th Cleric).

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Darkness mate!

Upper_Krust, that's an interesting breakdown. I don't know these guys' HD, though, and so, can't comment too much on it. (I think I heard that they are all in the 30s or so - at least in the BoVD, that is...)

Yeenoghu 33HD; Asmodeus 35HD and Demogorgon 39HD are the ones I know.

However, I am hazarding a guess that most of the challenge ratings are going to be too low...call it a hunch.

BTW, has the Book of Vile Darkness reached the UK yet?
And if not, any guess as to when it will?

Don't think so. Usually its about a month behind the US (two months behind for us here in Northern Ireland unfortunately)

If you order via amazon UK its usually about 2-3 weeks though.

(I'm asking because I want to be better able to guess when it'll come out in continental Europe, ya know. )

I'm sure you'll have it before me regardless.

If I have the book before Christmas I'll think its...Christmas.

 

[The Serge]

Based on the web preview necromancer games put out do the devils seem to be on the same playing field? I'm curious becuase the Creature Catalog versions were so much more powerful than the official versions from what I'm told.

It's a mix and match game. For the most part, the archfiends in BoVD are significantly weaker than their Creature Catalog counterparts... However, Cook's versions do have some nice extras.

For example, BoVD's Demogorgon can really pack a whoolop despite his lack of a lot of spellcasting ability and the BoVD Asmodeus does have his Rod (which is extremely powerful) and his Demand Submission special ability, which is no slouch.

Personally, I like the CC versions better because they are more akin to god-like beings than what Cook offers. However, Cook does add a degree (not an exceptional amount though) of originality with some special powers. I don't use either version.

I have created my own versions which I think make the archfiends more individualistic and far more dangerous, with CRs ranging from 51 to 61 thus far. If you're interested, I'd be happy to share them with you.

 

[Grazzt]

All I can say is that the versions on the CC site are different (in many, many ways) than the final ones I did for Tome.

For one thing, I dropped the HD down (for several of them), adjusted CRs, added new abilities (in some cases), adjusted ability scores, and made them a little more "epic" (you'll see what I mean in the final product).

I believe the end result will have them (some of them) slightly more powerful than Monte's version, but overall they should mesh well and play nicely together. And you can easily knock down caster level (for example) if it doesn't gel with what you feel is correct.

As for the Tome CRs vs. the CRs in the BoVD...I don't know how they came about in the BoVD. I know how we got them in the Tome. Not sure which are better.

And I don't know if they were "ramped" down to make the arch devils and demons more powerful like WotC did with dragons in the MM (which someone from WotC mentioned here or on the WotC boards quite a while ago).

Should be interesting to see...

 

[Celebrim]

For my part I think it rather silly to say that there is a 'correct' CR for something like an arch-villian. The correct CR is the one that allows you to use the villian in your campaign at the time you want to introduce the villian. I can't imagine what you need a CR 61 Asmodeus for, but heh, it's your campaign. I chuckle when I hear people complaining about Loth with 'only' 88 hit points (and the ability to cast 'heal' three times per day). All they really mean is that they no longer consider 15th level an epic level game.

 

[Grazzt]

For my part I think it rather silly to say that there is a 'correct' CR for something like an arch-villian. The correct CR is the one that allows you to use the villian in your campaign at the time you want to introduce the villian.

I completely agree. Not to hijack the thread, but I think too many people rely on CR and EL sometimes. I mean, think about this...D&D has been around for well over 20 years and did just fine without CRs and ELs.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled thread.