Power Swapping for great justice.

[That One Guy]

Could a pseudo-multiclassing occur where powers of the same source are swapped? Such as switching a rogue's @will for a ranger's or fighter's? Or give a Warlock a Wizard's Scorching Blast @will instead of a... whatever @will power. Essentially, declass the system and roles to something more general... Martial Character, Divine Character, and Arcane Character. Thus, one progresses up the levels in the same fashion as normal, but has a wider pool of powers to choose from. I suppose one could add on a role if they wanted and say that a character acquires the features from a class w/ the used power source.

Or... if somebody with the books/pdfs finds this line of thinking interesting, would you make an assessment as to how many features each class gets at level 1? If you'd be kind enough, also make a guess as to how powerful the features are.

(I'm not actually interested in declassing the paragon paths, and I think the epic destinies (once they release more) are somewhat declassed in a similar fashion).

 

[DonAdam]

Wouldn't work well. Powers are tied to role, and they're not balanced against other powers in a vacuum. They're balanced once you take things like hit points, armor efficiency, and a package of class features into account.

 

[keterys]

They're balanced once you take things like hit points, armor efficiency, and a package of class features into account.

Are you sure? They shouldn't be.

 

[Samurai]

Are you sure? They shouldn't be.

No, he's right, there are some powers that are flat out better than others at what they do because they are the focus of that character's role. For example, if 1 character's role is "provide healing" (Cleric), his healing powers are just plain better than other classes, who may still get an ability to heal themselves.

 

[Asmor]

Are you sure? They shouldn't be.

Why not?

If a striker can't do more damage than a defender... why play a striker?

 

[Nifft]

No, he's right, there are some powers that are flat out better than others at what they do because they are the focus of that character's role. For example, if 1 character's role is "provide healing" (Cleric), his healing powers are just plain better than other classes, who may still get an ability to heal themselves.

The Cleric's main healing power -- Healing Word -- is identical to the Warlord's healing power. What makes it better is one of the Cleric's class features.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Masquerade]

If a striker can't do more damage than a defender... why play a striker?

Mobility? Range? Damage isn't the only aspect of a striker.

Yeah, I know this doesn't directly affect the debate at hand.

 

[That One Guy]

Thanks for the input. My new thoughts...

What I propose does not work with 4e as we know it. One could build a teamwork oriented rogue, or a fighter who borrows the two-weapon abilities of the ranger... except that there would be no class terms. So, a stealth-oriented martial character would have a leadership power, and a defending-oriented melee character would have two weapon fighting.

There are flaws and merits to this proposed idea. Obviously, it allows one to ignore the roles, or at least in very real ways crossbreed them. The thing is, this may be a flaw or merit, depending on how much complication and customization the player/dm wants. As DonAdam said, there are also class features that alter the strengths of these powers. In the martial, arcane, and divine system... how would one deal with class features? Would one assess each feature's powers and put them in a pool for grabbing at certain costs or say there are features for a Martial Character>Melee-oriented Defender(?)... but then you could replace his/her powers w/ those from the rogue/ranger/warlord as needed.

I like a lot of options and customization. Would a gestalt power source character be too over-powered when compared to a regular power source character? If one is interested in this line of thinking, how would they employ class features?

 

[keterys]

Why not?

If a striker can't do more damage than a defender... why play a striker?

The difference shouldn't be in the _powers_, but in their class features.

Ie, the rogue's extra 2d8 sneak attack should ensure he does more damage, even if a fighter used his powers.

The powers should be balanced on their own - class features are their own deal. Do you have real evidence that powers _aren't_ balanced against each other?

Like, someone posted some example level 29 powers for every class, and they all balanced against each other... the rogue's did more damage with crits and sneak attack, while the fighter's was reliable, the paladin's did a blind against enemies, etc.

 

[keterys]

No, he's right, there are some powers that are flat out better than others at what they do because they are the focus of that character's role. For example, if 1 character's role is "provide healing" (Cleric), his healing powers are just plain better than other classes, who may still get an ability to heal themselves.

So, it _should_ work out somewhere in the equation... the leader's power should be better at healing, the striker's better at damaging, the leader's better at stickyness, what have you... but as far as I know the powers -should- be able to be compared against each other. Otherwise you'd be stupid to ever multiclass into certain classes (and always advantaged to multiclass out), just cause that class got more hit points or whatever, which would be poor.

At a minimum, any powers that 'break this rule' should do so like the rogue Positioning Strike - with a class only Artful Dodger type exception.

Anyhow, I can't fully participate / look, but I do have enough info for one counterargument...
Healing Strike (Cleric) - 2W and ally can use a healing surge.
Invigorating Smite (Paladin) - _against Will_ 2W and bloodied you and bloodied allies within 5 heal 5 + Wis.

I don't think the cleric is clearly ahead there for healing. The paladin's attack is against Will which is a notable advantage, and in a 'best case' situation can heal quite a lot.