Power vs. Options

[OnlineDM]

I'd like a slight twist on [MENTION=56189]Kzach[/MENTION]'s proposal: Higher level characters shouldn't have MORE options, but BETTER options. If characters get lots and lots of options, it leads to slowdown at the table as players sort through all of their options and try to decide which one to use. Swapping out a low-level option for a higher-level option would be fine by me, though.

 

[Ratskinner]

Well sure, if the whole game is designed around that philosophy, then yes it's going to work out just fine. But I have to say that it sounds like it would make for one of the dullest adventures I can picture. In a low-fantasy, human-dominated setting, it works. Your enemies are going to largely be things on par with yourself, if you ever do run into a dragon in such a setting...run away.

However, that's all fine for what it's worth, but that's not D&D IMO. D&D always has that level of epic fantasy to it, of giant monsters and extra-planar beings and pitting characters against circumstances that are truly above and beyond the normal range of human capacity. Certainly these things do not occur on a daily basis, but at a higher level it's not unsurprising to find adventurers facing ancient dragons and old ones. With the proposed system, such an adventure would be impossible.

Frankly, I would not want to see the proposed system as core D&D. For some systems I'm sure that's fine, but this just strikes me as not D&D.

:shrug: I wouldn't say impossible. The numbers for the monsters (even the big ones) have changed so much over the years that they are essentially meaningless. (I suppose that goes without saying...all the numbers are meaningless outside the context of the game.) Just refigure them for the appropriate amount of challenge, for the most part, and call it a day. Every edition seems to redefine the range of numbers you expect to see for hp, AC, attack chances, etc. The last couple kept making those ranges wider, it sounds like this one may reign it back a bit. So a Dragon might have 50 hp instead of 200, depending on the edition, 50 can be a really big number.

In such a system (IME), the height/depth of the fantasy aspect is largely dependent on the number and quality of magic items that the party has available. If the game is to be gritty, they'll have very few resources to draw upon. If the game is high fantasy, they'll all be wielding magical swords and rings, and arrows, and ....well, that makes up for it. Its a very easy dial to turn, I saw it all the time in 2e. (Although hard to turn it back within the campaign, once its gotten out of hand.)

 

[The Human Target]

I'm all for option over power.

I don't even think hit points or attack bonuses need to go up, we're just trained to think they need to.

 

[Sunseeker]

:shrug: I wouldn't say impossible. The numbers for the monsters (even the big ones) have changed so much over the years that they are essentially meaningless. (I suppose that goes without saying...all the numbers are meaningless outside the context of the game.) Just refigure them for the appropriate amount of challenge, for the most part, and call it a day. Every edition seems to redefine the range of numbers you expect to see for hp, AC, attack chances, etc. The last couple kept making those ranges wider, it sounds like this one may reign it back a bit. So a Dragon might have 50 hp instead of 200, depending on the edition, 50 can be a really big number.

Sure, and IMO it's easier to tune things up than down. The problem is I really don't want to be faced with the proposition of tuning up EVERYTHING in a game.

In such a system (IME), the height/depth of the fantasy aspect is largely dependent on the number and quality of magic items that the party has available. If the game is to be gritty, they'll have very few resources to draw upon. If the game is high fantasy, they'll all be wielding magical swords and rings, and arrows, and ....well, that makes up for it. Its a very easy dial to turn, I saw it all the time in 2e. (Although hard to turn it back within the campaign, once its gotten out of hand.)

I don't favor this distinction. Even in my epic adventures members of the party rarely have more than 4 magic items. And most of those are limited to the "essentials", such as a weapon, armor and a rink or neck item. Many magic items doesn't improve the high-fantasy nature of it, it just improves the absurdity and how quickly players can find the most broken/silly things and abuse them. That's not fantastical, that's annoying.

 

[Ratskinner]

Sure, and IMO it's easier to tune things up than down. The problem is I really don't want to be faced with the proposition of tuning up EVERYTHING in a game.

umm...you do realize that the numbers are only relatable within an edition, right? I don't see why you'd need to turn them up. I mean, you can write the rules so that +5 is a super-human attack bonus. At some point, the designers will (or did) sit down and say "+X is the maximum unenhanced bonus for a human" once that's done you can set the stats for the Demons and Dragons and whatnot to reflect that.

I don't favor this distinction. Even in my epic adventures members of the party rarely have more than 4 magic items. And most of those are limited to the "essentials", such as a weapon, armor and a rink or neck item. Many magic items doesn't improve the high-fantasy nature of it, it just improves the absurdity and how quickly players can find the most broken/silly things and abuse them. That's not fantastical, that's annoying.

Different strokes, I guess. But that's asking for a very specific playstyle to be core, and that sounds like something they're trying to avoid. OTOH, modules are our friends, so who knows.

 

[mkill]

My wild guess is:

* +1 to attack every 5 levels (starting at 3)
* +1 to two or three stats every five levels (starting at 5)
* stat bonus = stat - 10; that is Str 18 = Str +8
* +1 magic items at heroic, +2 magic items at paragon, +3 at epic
* +1 / tier inherent bonus for campaigns without magic items
* NO attack bonus from feats

This equals a +1 / 2 levels progression on the monster side, or about half the progression speed of 4E.

Classes are probably written in a way that you get a class feature, power, spell slot, bonus feat or similar every level. Multiclass characters can pick between their two classes at every level.

There is a second track where you get either +1 to attack or +1 to two ability scores or a racial feature or a theme feature or a feat (that's five categories, so one every five levels each)

Oh, and you'll get a combat style at level one, because that's just such a great idea

But as I said, it's pure speculation and we'll know more when the playtest material arrives.

 

[Ahnehnois]

Here's the other side of the coin: everything is incremental.

That is to say, any kind of options acquired through character advancement are somewhat problematic. If a character acquires a new ability, there's question of why that ability appeared out of nowhere. Why could this fighter not at least try to swing his sword this way before leveling up? With magic, you can ignore these kinds of things (though it's not ideal), but with martial characters, any character should at least be able to try any maneuver, any tactic. The options at his disposal are dependent on the laws of physics, not his character level.

And if they can already use the full palate, advancement is simply about making particular options more viable, increasing the numbers associated with them.

I don't totally diagree with the OP; I tend to think the power curve is too steep and the fighters' and rogues' options are too bland and limited. And I don't think that a generic +1 bonus to attacks every level is a great paradign. But I do think the basic philosophy of the game has to be that anyone can try anything (possibly excepting magic) and that advancement simply incrementally improves specific things.

 

[Kzach]

In such a system, even the greatest fighting party would barely be able to challenge even the most rudimentary kobold raiding party. Liches? Dragons? Mysterious beings from beyond? Nope, not a chance.

Umm... you realise that monsters would work in the same way, right? And in such a system, even a 1st-level party would stand a chance against a 20th-level lich. Or is 1 + 1 too difficult a concept?

 

[Sunseeker]

Umm... you realise that monsters would work in the same way, right? And in such a system, even a 1st-level party would stand a chance against a 20th-level lich. Or is 1 + 1 too difficult a concept?

Don't be an ass, seriously.

While it may seem like that in theory, the reality is that after gaining 20 levels of "options", that Lich is going to have 20 different ways to screw your party. Even though it sounds nice to say a lvl 1 could stand a chance against a lvl20, the reality of the situation is against them.

Sure, they could hit them. Okay, they've got two "options". The lvl 20 guy however can still hit the lvl1 better(even if we're keeping the power creep to only gaining +1 to hit over 20 levels), and has more ways to subdue their foe. Maybe it's more stuns, maybe it's more fireballs, one way or the other, the lvl20 always beats the lvl1.

Okay, I guess we could REALLY limit things down and give the lvl1 guy 3 options and then say that you're only going to gain maybe 2 more options over 20 levels and then have to constantly be replacing them ala 4e, so then the lvl20 guy really only gets maybe 2 more powers than the lvl1 guy and really can't hit any...

Hey...what's the point of levels again if we're not really gaining anything and we're not really hitting any harder?

Look I know this idea sounds great in theory, but realistically, be it pure +to hit bonuses or numbers of options, the lvl20 guy is gonna wipe the floor with the lvl1 guy.

 

[Li Shenron]

In such a system, even the greatest fighting party would barely be able to challenge even the most rudimentary kobold raiding party. Liches? Dragons? Mysterious beings from beyond? Nope, not a chance.

Only if the only tactic they can think of is dealing damage...

More options mean more tactics that can be tried. Just on the top of my head, maybe the "mysterious beings from beyond" can be dealt with appropriate banishment-type spells.