Power vs. Options

[Essenti]

Argh... I went off on a tangent about feat emulation as a possibility for a new mechanic for 5e, when what I originally intended to do was state an experience that I thought was related to the point the OP was trying to make.

Power vs. Options.

Initially we were using the Black Company action points for the raw numerical power they gave us as a bonus to d20 rolls, but once we picked up on the value of emulating feats, and thus increasing our options, the feat emulation became the preferred mechanic over the numerical increase. Having the potential to do more things improved the game for us, as we were more likely to try new things we hadn't done before.

Although for my group of players we obviously drifted towards options over power, this might not be the case for other groups. Some people prefer to play a powerful character and are not particularly interested in doing new things, but rather, doing the same things better and better. 5e might be better off allowing for either type of progression with add-on modules.

 

[Kzach]

Rude behaviour for two posts in one page certainly nets you an infraction. Just don't do it, ok?

Ok, ok, I apologise to whatshisname and would like to submit to the court the defence that I bought four bottles of Marlborough Sauvignon Blanc on a super, special deal and so have spent the last four days quite drunk so therefore I should be excused for all my poor behaviour and let off with a slap on the wrist and a promise never to do it again...

...at least until next time.

So, what where we talking about?

 

[Rhenny]

A flatter curve would also help DMs because then a DM could use creatures more often. I think that's something that WotC talked about in the seminars. The party would take longer to graduate past Orcs for example, or Kobolds, or others.

 

[The Human Target]

But isn't some element of this a core D&D experience? And if it's gone, is it still D&D? I'm not sure it is. I can tolerate a certain flattening of the curve, but without some increase in power, you're really giving up a lot of the epic scope of adventuring D&D has encompassed to date.

Yes it is.

And to me that might not be so much of a good thing.

I think you can absolutely have epic scope without having any real inflation of numbers.

 

[The Human Target]

A flatter curve would also help DMs because then a DM could use creatures more often. I think that's something that WotC talked about in the seminars. The party would take longer to graduate past Orcs for example, or Kobolds, or others.

See, thats what I'm all about.

Imagine being able to use every monster at every level? Every adventure and trap and item and feat.

Its fills my heart with joy.

 

[Iron Sky]

Here's how I would envision the difference between a say 1st level vs 10th level character. Replace "Energy Points" with "Encounter power" to suit:

Fighter 1
HP: 15(Con)
AC: 15
Attack: +5 vs AC, 1d8+5 damage.
Power Attack (class feature): 1/enc, +1d8 damage on a hit
Takedown Attack (feat): 1/enc, knock enemy prone on a hit
Shield block (equipment feature): Degrade DR by 1, force enemy to re-roll attack after damage is rolled
Heavy Armor (equipment feature): Degrade DR by 1, double DR until end of next turn
Armor: Scale (DR4) + Heavy Shield(DR 2)

Fighter 10
HP: 42(Con +3/level)
AC: 19
Attack: +8 vs AC, 1d8+8 damage
Energy Points: 4, Regen: 2
Power Attack (class feature): 2/enc, +1d8 damage on a hit
Improved Power Attack (class feature): 1/enc, +3d8 damage on a hit
Takedown Attack (feat): 2/enc, knock enemy prone on a hit
Shield Block (equipment feature): Degrade DR by 1, force enemy to re-roll attack after damage is rolled
Shield Mastery (equipment feature): Shield block penalty lasts until end of next turn
Heavy Armor (equipment feature): Degrade DR by 1, double DR until end of next turn
Heavy Armor Training (feat): Make a save any time armor would degrade to negate
Heavy Armor Mastery (feat): Increase DR by 1, triple DR until end of next turn instead of double when using feature.
Armor: Reinforced Plate +1 (DR6, save vs Crit to turn it to a normal hit) + Guardian's Heavy Shield(DR 2, applies to adjacent allies as well)
Heavy Dragonslaying Longsword: Ignore 2 DR(5 DR for dragons), +1d10 crit (+2d10 vs Dragons)

I thought about it more, but I've gotta run...

 

[wedgeski]

So, proponents of this theory, help me understand.

Let's say for the sake of argument that 5E goes from 1st to 20th level. Tell me what makes a 20th level fight vs a group of orcs different than a 1st level fight vs a group of orcs. What options do you envisage seeing in play at the highest level of the game that aren't available at the start?

Then, tell me what makes a 20th level fight vs. a dragon different than a 1st level fight vs that same group of orcs.

 

[JonWake]

Well, let's take it to the narrative space.

A 1st level party sees the group of orcs as a deadly, possibly overwhelming threat. With their light HPs and moderate damage options, a frontal charge would be suicide. One on one they are almost equals, so the party has to use hit and run attacks, force the orcs to follow them, and fight on their terms. Luckily, the orcs aren't that smart and run right into the trap the thief set up, turning the tide.

The 20th level party sees a similar band of orcs and, as that they're intruding on the player's demesne, the fighter decides that he needs to run them off. He marches up to them and tells them to leg it, but the dumb buggers have no idea who he is and charges them. Before they realize it, he's laid into them, killing three in the first pass. They try to flank him, but he spins out of their control, tossing them aside like tenpins. The biggest orc manages to land a blow, but the fighter's decade of combat experience lets him slip the worst of it and leaves nothing more than a nasty scratch. He runs through another orc, leaving the last disarmed and snarling in the dirt. He sends that one on its way to warn the other orcs of what will happen if they encroach on his land again.

 

[Ratinyourwalls]

So, proponents of this theory, help me understand.

Let's say for the sake of argument that 5E goes from 1st to 20th level. Tell me what makes a 20th level fight vs a group of orcs different than a 1st level fight vs a group of orcs. What options do you envisage seeing in play at the highest level of the game that aren't available at the start?

Then, tell me what makes a 20th level fight vs. a dragon different than a 1st level fight vs that same group of orcs.

Scale. The level 1 fighter is fighting a couple of Orc brigands on the road leading into town.

The level 20 fighter is fighting a group of Blood Shaman Grazuul's elite bodyguard orc at the peak of a volcano while trying to interfere with Grazuul's ritual to awaken a primordial locked at it's heart.

 

[kitsune9]

Here's how I would envision the difference between a say 1st level vs 10th level character. Replace "Energy Points" with "Encounter power" to suit:

Fighter 1
HP: 15(Con)
AC: 15
Attack: +5 vs AC, 1d8+5 damage.


Fighter 10
HP: 42(Con +3/level)
AC: 19
Attack: +8 vs AC, 1d8+8 damage

Now that's definitely a flatter scale you got there Iron! Looks like you went for a +1/3 levels.