Powergaming w/ Awaken: I have +2 HD!

[Hypersmurf]

The only problem will come when he reverts back to his normal form and those nifty bonuses go away because he is no longer an animal (or magical beast, for that matter). [/b]

How do you see Shillelagh working, then?

It affects a non-magical club or staff. Yet, as soon as you cast it on the club, it isn't a non-magical club any more. Does that mean the spell stops working?

Or, since the club was a valid target when the spell was cast, does the spell work normally?

If I agree to let the wizard cast Levitate on me - making me a willing creature - and then change my mind after he's cast - making me an unwilling creature - does the spell stop working? I was a valid target when the spell was cast.

If I cast Heat Metal on two creatures 25 feet apart, their armour starts to heat up. They're one or more creatures, no two of which are more than 30 feet apart, so they're valid targets. If they now each take a 5' step away from each other, they're 35 feet apart. Does their armor stop heating up?

Likewise, the druid was a valid target for Awaken when the spell was cast. Why should it go away just because he changes shape?

Not to mention the hit he'll likely take on Wis and Cha when he rolls those new values based on the spell. Hehe.

Why, that's why you cast Maximized Awaken.

-Hyp.

 

[Corwin]

A little snippy, dontcha think?

How do you see Shillelagh working, then?

It affects a non-magical club or staff. Yet, as soon as you cast it on the club, it isn't a non-magical club any more. Does that mean the spell stops working?

Or, since the club was a valid target when the spell was cast, does the spell work normally?

If I agree to let the wizard cast Levitate on me - making me a willing creature - and then change my mind after he's cast - making me an unwilling creature - does the spell stop working? I was a valid target when the spell was cast.

If I cast Heat Metal on two creatures 25 feet apart, their armour starts to heat up. They're one or more creatures, no two of which are more than 30 feet apart, so they're valid targets. If they now each take a 5' step away from each other, they're 35 feet apart. Does their armor stop heating up?

These examples differ because, unlike the awaken example, those obects/persons being affected are still the same, dispite the additional spell effects they may have going on top. But once the druid is no longer wildshaped, the qualifying factor (being an animal) is gone.[/QUOTE]

 

[Hypersmurf]

These examples differ because, unlike the awaken example, those obects/persons being affected are still the same, dispite the additional spell effects they may have going on top. But once the druid is no longer wildshaped, the qualifying factor (being an animal) is gone.

Hmm?

Levitate affects a willing target. Awaken affects an Animal.

The Levitate target became unwilling; the Awaken target became not-an-animal.

How is that different?

The Levitate target is not "the same" - if he had been unwilling when the spell was cast, it simply wouldn't have worked. Just like if the druid hadn't been an Animal. But he's changed his mind - he was willing, now he isn't.

-Hyp.

 

[Corwin]

Exactly.

To quote the ever-lovin' SRD3.5...

"Levitate allows you to move yourself, another creature, or an object up and down as you wish. A creature must be willing to be levitated, and an object must be unattended or possessed by a willing creature..."

This is in addition to the stat block for targets stating that the creatures must be willing to be targets in the first place. So, apparantly, if you change your mind and become unwilling, I guess you won't be levitated, huh?

Sounds fair to me. Anything else?

 

[Hypersmurf]

So, apparantly, if you change your mind and become unwilling, I guess you won't be levitated, huh?

But do you fall, or does it just prevent the caster from moving you?

Anything else?

Hold Person or Charm Person on a humanoid, followed by a Baneful Polymorph. If they're no longer humanoid, are they still Charmed or Held?

Lesser Geas cast on a 7th level character who gains a level before the expiry of the duration. If he no longer has 7 or fewer hit dice, is he still bound by the geas? Or, alternatively, if he dies and is Raised, he was, for a time, not a "living creature"... is he still affected by the Geas when he is brought back?

Bless cast on an ally who becomes an enemy. Does he still receive the bonuses?

Banishment cast on an extraplanar creature who, later, gains extra hit dice, putting him over the 2HD/caster level threshold. Is he "unbanished"?

-Hyp.

 

[Camarath]

I think I will just have Awaken function as a Ritual of Unlearning (with out the gold cost) when cast on a character.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Lesser Geas cast on a 7th level character who gains a level before the expiry of the duration. If he no longer has 7 or fewer hit dice, is he still bound by the geas? Or, alternatively, if he dies and is Raised, he was, for a time, not a "living creature"... is he still affected by the Geas when he is brought back?

Trap the soul does the same thing, and is ideal for removing any 'affects a creature' spells, especially since you cease to be a valid target for the spell after it goes off.

Actually, I think the prime argument would be:
Does a nonevil creature with a level equal to your caster level -10 who is hit by a "blasphemy" spell die and then return to life? It's an instant spell. It only affects creatures (and someone who's dead is now an object). Therefore it should stop working when the target dies, undoing it's effects and returning him to life, right?

 

[Darkness]

And you wouldn't be able to rinse and repeat- spells generally don't stack with themselves. Still, doing it even once is problematic.

I also think that, if the druid again wildshaped into Animal later, he'd instead be a Magical Beast again (since awaken is a permanent effect that turns an Animal into a Magical Beast). YMMV, but it makes sense to me, at least.

'course, if someone was awakened IMC, I'd also let him pay an appropriate ECL for his new HD. Again, YMMV.

 

[Xarls Taunzund]

Banishment and Blasphemy, as well as any other instantaneous spells, are bad examples because they are just that, instantaneous. By a strict reading of the rules, yes, you would be able to awaken yourself while in wildshape. However, this is an obvious oversight (far from the only one) of WotC. I would personally not allow this in my own game, nor would I try it in another's game, even if given permission, as it would tend to complicate things a bit. Also, on the topic of doing this multiple times, keep in mind the 250 point exp cost, which in and of itself is not much, but do it enough times and it is a lot.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Banishment and Blasphemy, as well as any other instantaneous spells, are bad examples because they are just that, instantaneous.

That's very much the point.

Awaken is also an instantaneous spell. If the effects of Blasphemy do not go away when the creature becomes an invalid target, why should the effects of Awaken?

-Hyp.