Powergaming: Wizard vs. Sorcerer

[jasin]

Wizard. Hands down. Better spellcasting stat (excpet for the planar ally as mentioned, but there's always Cha buffs).

Yes, this tends to get overlooked, but it's a big bonus for the wizard. The skills are probably my favourite part of how I built Shimrod, my AoW wizard. He has at least casually studied every area of scholarship known to man! It's great fun to be able to at least try for any topic the DM cares to mention, and it's not very difficult at all for a wizard.

 

[Nyeshet]

I didn't vote.

It depends greatly on the situation. In a single encounter fight where the group knows (prior to character creation) what they will be facing, a Sorcerer is likely best. Similarly, if the group has few encounters between rest periods and the encounters are straight forward blasting, then again the sorcerer is likely best.

However, if the encounters are complex, requiring versatility in spells known, then the wizard will win out most of the time. Also, when the group has been playing for a while (ie: not a one shot encounter) and learn ahead of time what they are facing, the wizard typically can prepare for it better than the sorcerer, who is stuck with whatever spells he chose to know earlier on.

So, provisionally, the wizard is stronger, but there are (albeit highly specific) situations where the sorcerer has the edge.

 

[Aust Diamondew]

I think a sorcerer with the right spell selection can out cast a wizard unless a certain spell the sorcerer doesn't know is needed.

Just realized my vote may be tainted though as my group house rules that metamagic doesn't slow a sorcerer's casting time.

 

[airwalkrr]

I prefer playing wizards. But that is only because I like their versatility. I like having any tool to get the job done. If power is relegated to combat potential, then the sorcerer wins. Since combat is the be-all/end-all of most 3.5 games, I voted sorcerer.

 

[victorysaber]

If you gave a Sorcerer

a)5 + 1(fixed, like Eschew Materials or Spell Penetration) bonus feats (analog to Wizard's 5 bonus feats + Scribe Scroll)

b)bumped up spell progression, so that they get their spells one level earlier (ie the same level as the Wizard)

would it make them equal to Wizards? Or stronger?

Or would just either option A or B be enough by itself to equalise with Wizards?

 

[Plane Sailing]

One of the advantages that a Sorcerer has over a wizard is the ability to use and re-use spells when necessary. At, say, 10th level - how many dispel magics does a wizard have prepared? He has probably got between 4-6 3rd level slots, but how many of those are filled with dispel magic - probably 1, maybe 2. He could have a wand, but it is probably at a lower caster level if he does.

The 10th level sorcerer could potentially cast his dispel magic 20 times if he really, really needed to try to get rid of that high level magic obstacle.

Similarly with fly - the wizard might be able to fly, the sorcerer could make the whole party fly.

The sorcerer misses out on the ability to prepare esoteric spells for particular circumstances (I imagine that water breathing would rarely make it onto a sorcerer list) - but they can always buy scrolls for the spells that you very rarely need (but when you need them you *need* them).

It is interesting to note that unless the DM allows wizards to purchase scrolls and inscribe them into his spellbook, or find and make use of the spellbooks of defeated foes, the default wizard learns 2 spells per level; the default sorcerer learns 4 spells per 2 levels. So although the wizards have the -capability- to know more spells and have more spells available, there is a balancing cost involved*

In a campaign where DMs regularly allow wizards to expand their spell repertoire, but never ever make the wizards spellbook an 'issue' that might be stolen, damaged or destroyed, they are probably giving wizards a bit of an extra advantage (I imagine the core rules anticipate that there should be a danger to the wizards spell book - hence the existence of the 'Spell Mastery' feat (or whatever the feat is that allows you to prepare (int bonus) spells without having your spell book. I imagine that the feat rarely gets taken in most campaigns if most campaigns never have a threat to the spellbook!

I actually think that sorcerers are harder to create and run than wizards in many ways. Planning out which (of a limited range) of spells you want to have at each level, and then planning the order in which you want to acquire them and when it might be possible to swap out appropriately can be pretty tricky. You really don't want to make mistakes when planning your spells!


* I just worked this out. If the DM allows a PC to copy from an NPC wizards spellbook at the cost of spell level * 50gp, the cost for that spell repertoire would be 14,400gp. If the DM said that scrolls would have to be purchased instead, and assuming that we are not including extra-expensive ones, the cost for that spell repertoire would be 27,200gp. Presumably an equivalent PC sorcerer would have that much extra value in magic equipment?

Cheers

 

[hopeless]

Just wondering which is considered a more powerful class.
Edit: Specialist Wizards count.

This really depends on the game and the dm running it.
If it was me, I'd increase their HD to d6 and add 3 bonus class skills oftheir choice to show their individuality from the wizard class as I really don't see removing the scry skill from every class and adding bluff to a sorceror class actually counts!

In one game where I started off with a sorceror the dm claimed sorceror's are dependent on scrolls and since wizards get that feat for free kind of ruins the class.
Spontaneous casting is nice, but when they brought out the favoured soul and gave them numerious bonus feats when the cleric only has domain spells and turn/rebuke undead it made it all the more ridiculous as it made the sorceror a more appropriate alternative to the cleric than the favoured soul actually does after all cleric's have more right to being able to automatically wield their deity's favoured weapon than some pseudo-paladin with clerical casting abilities in addition to feats geared to encourage powergaming than the way they treated sorcerors.
Then came the Unearthed arcana where they allow all spellcasters' the ability to spontaneous cast any spelll they know... and what do they give sorcerors in return for this?
One additional spell poinmt at their lowest class even though due to the fact they get higher level spells late they will be seriously behind the wizard in terms of casting ability as well as known spells.

Now I like sorcerors, some say they're a simpler version of a wizard where you only have to select your spells and not have to change them day by day BUT I believe thats even harder as any wizard can take 15 minutes to change their reportoire whilst a sorceror has to cope with what they have and I had more fun with my halfling sorceror than I did the few times I ran another player's wizard when I had to make head or tail out of his character sheet and had to be persuaded not to correct mistakes I found since that might mess up his character sheet.
One day I might try running a wizard, but thats a long way off...

 

[Nifft]

The sorcerer misses out on the ability to prepare esoteric spells for particular circumstances (I imagine that water breathing would rarely make it onto a sorcerer list) - but they can always buy scrolls for the spells that you very rarely need (but when you need them you *need* them).
[...]
27,200gp. Presumably an equivalent PC sorcerer would have that much extra value in magic equipment?

The thing is, a Wizard can make scrolls for half the price that the Sorcerer pays. So I'm not sure that "extra loot" is really a note of balance in favor of the Sorcerer.

A Wizard also gets all those nifty bonus feats, which may be used for item creation (like Wands or Staves or Rings or Wondrous items which obviate particular spells). Again, at half price.

Fear the Wizard with wealth and spare time.

Cheers, -- N

 

[hopeless]

Reg: Powergaming characters

Just curious, thought I'd start a discussion. The idea actually came from the OotS thread, where it's stated that V is a powergamer. Got me thinking.
Yeah, uh sorry for not searching for any threads on it (ya know, since I can't).

In the game where I ran my halfling sorceror another player ran a paladin and we learned later he had persuaded the dm to let him use 1st edition rules to generate money for his character so he ended up starting the game with a set of full plate and a masterwork greatsword and although having the best AC of the party didn't stop him grabbing a +1 ring of protectionn off my sorceror when I offered it to the player of the monk as he was the best frontline fighter we had.
Now THAT was a powergamer with the traditional Lawful EVIL ideal of a paladin.
I'm not kidding about that last bit why the dm didn't strip him of his paladin status at least five times during those three scenarios he ran I will never understand (although I have suspicions...)
Any way take care and all the best!

 

[Plane Sailing]

The thing is, a Wizard can make scrolls for half the price that the Sorcerer pays. So I'm not sure that "extra loot" is really a note of balance in favor of the Sorcerer.

A Wizard also gets all those nifty bonus feats, which may be used for item creation (like Wands or Staves or Rings or Wondrous items which obviate particular spells). Again, at half price.

Fear the Wizard with wealth and spare time.

I was thinking more along the line of the sorcerer having an extra cloak of resistance +3 or metamagic rod or invisibility ring or something in terms of the 'cash difference' rather than using it to purchase scrolls himself - although you could get a heck of a lot of useful scrolls for that. The wizard could make additional copies of those scrolls (but that is additional money spent, even at half price).

The item creation feats are neat, but having had an item creating druid I have to say that it *is* a noticeable xp drain and money drain, even with the half cost aspect to it... and that is when the time was available. In the campaign that I play in, most of the wizards find they don't have either the time or money or the spare xps to craft the stuff that they really would like to craft. They rarely got more than 2 out of 3

Of course, I'm not saying that this one thing makes sorcerers 'super 733t'; it is just that it rarely seems to come up in comparitive discussions.

Cheers